OpenGeofiction

Discord on OGF...

Posted by Luciano on 16 January 2017 in Korean (한국어)

Everyone is upset about Discord. I think it's great to see the community engaged and discussing things, but we need to be adults. No ad hominem attacks, please - especially in diary entry titles.

All discussion about Discord will be restricted to this diary entry. New diary entries on the topic will be shut down. I will post a transcript of two other diary entries (now removed) as first comments, below.

Let's try to respect each other. Happy mapping.

Comment from Luciano on 16 January 2017 at 00:37

Below is transcript from previous deleted diary entry - "for the record" and respecting everyone's voice.


Do NOT join Joshua Reed's discord channel. Posted by TheHolyEpicpenguin on 15 January 2017 in English (English) Joshua Reed's discord channel is a complete joke. He mutes anyone who disagrees with him and he banned me for speaking the truth. Anyways, I am making a LEGIT discord channel for OGF. A fair one, too.

Okay, so, here it is guys. https://discord.gg/Z2zCmdt Join if you're tired of Joshua Reed abusing his power on the OGF discord he created.


Comment from JoshuaRoadMapper on 15 January 2017 at 20:19 Ignore this message.


Comment from Yuanls on 15 January 2017 at 20:20 Joshua is being very problematic. He is using his power far too much.


Comment from JoshuaRoadMapper on 15 January 2017 at 20:22 Because y'all broke many rules.


Comment from JoshuaRoadMapper on 15 January 2017 at 20:27 By the way, everything is back to normal now.


Comment from eklas on 15 January 2017 at 20:48 i'm so tired of this.


Comment from Myrcia on 15 January 2017 at 20:57 This is exactly what I thought would happen. If there is going to be a chat room then it should be set up and owned by the site administrators.

It has been quite fun chatting with people informally and I think there is some value in having an official OGF chat but I do not think it should be operated by a single user who has no official role.

If it is going to be a distraction from mapping then it should go altogether.


Comment from Luziyca on 15 January 2017 at 21:06 Why not just make an OpenGeofiction IRC and be done with it?


Comment from JoshuaRoadMapper on 15 January 2017 at 21:08 Guys, everything is back to normal. Look!


Comment from trabantemnaksiezyc on 15 January 2017 at 21:23 And what about a forum - I've created in 30 minutes something like this but if there is interest I may expand it: http://trabantemnaksiezyc.cba.pl/ogfforum/index.php It would allow for some long-term discussion, on a chat all the posts disappear very quickly.


Comment from Myrcia on 15 January 2017 at 21:26 If there was going to be a forum I also think it should be set up by the admins. There must be a better platform than phpBB, that is what I was using 10 years ago!


Comment from trabantemnaksiezyc on 15 January 2017 at 21:41 Oh, I see - I've been using MyBB recently, and made this on PhpBB just to see if anything happens, and now it kind of stopped working for me (I logged out and it seems like the page didn't register that, and I cannot do anything). I'm deleting this thing then.


Comment from JoshuaRoadMapper on 15 January 2017 at 21:46 Let's try to forget this fight and move on.


Comment from Myrcia on 15 January 2017 at 21:51 Whilst the original post is silly I think there is a conversation we ought to have about who should be running the chat and whether there is a need for something better than wiki and user diaries to work on projects and get feedback.

I think the current set up works okay but a lot of what I find that's interesting on OGF has been by accident either looking through the change logs on the wiki or the history on the map. I think Luciano has done a noble job with his blog on the wiki but doing that requires a lot of time and a fair bit of confidence in wiki editing.

What might work well would be something like a workgroup with a chat and the ability to set up diaries and discussion groups.

However, rather than individual users going off to set these up I feel strongly that it should come through official OGF channels and be controlled by OGF admin.


Comment from Myrcia on 15 January 2017 at 23:03 I have left the OGF server and I would encourage every sensible member to do so and wait for the admins to designate an official OGF chat (if one comes about).

OGF is a collaborative platform for like-minded geofiction fans to meet and work together to create the amazing cities and countries which we've made. This project shouldn't be undermined and distracted from by something which is not working.

It is hard work for the admins to keep OGF ticking over and the last thing they need is arguments breaking out over abuse of power on an unofficial chatroom. If you want to show off the mapping you're doing then make a post in User Diaries or use your wiki user page.

There are lots of ways to talk, be creative and share project updates and if there needs to be another it should be officially sanctioned and controlled by OGF.

I'm going to go back to mapping, there's lots to do around my new university area. If you want to speak to me don't message me on Discord as I won't be using it any more.


Comment from FloridaRoadgeek on 15 January 2017 at 23:10 I totally agree NOT to join this discord. He doesn't give you any opinions and mutes everyone for no reason and kicks randomly. If you are looking for an OGF discord I would recommend TheHolyEpicPenguin's discord. It is much more fair and DO NOT join Joshua Reed's discord.


Comment from FloridaRoadgeek on 15 January 2017 at 23:12 If you want to talk to the real OGF people I would recommend staying away from Joshua's.


Comment from JoshuaRoadMapper on 15 January 2017 at 23:28 Stop, Florida.


Comment from Luciano on 15 January 2017 at 23:42 I removed the second diary entry, by Aces California, because it was entirely unproductive. I would like to remove this diary entry too, but I think some of the discussion is valuable. For now I will leave it, but this is not a place for childish arguments.

I like the Discord app, but I think we need to have a different "admin" arrangement, if Joshua is making people angry in that role.

I would also support creating IRC, but someone else will have to do that - it's been a long time since I used IRC and I am not up to speed on it.


Comment from Luziyca on 15 January 2017 at 23:45 I agree. We should at least have an official admin Discord.


Comment from JoshuaRoadMapper on 15 January 2017 at 23:50 I agree, Luziyca. And someone needs to remove hatred diaries.


Comment from An egg trying to draw a map on 15 January 2017 at 23:54 I also agree


Comment from An egg trying to draw a map on 16 January 2017 at 00:12 Luciano will the discord channel stay up and allow some other mappers to talk on? All the arguing should be gone by Monday.


Comment from JoshuaRoadMapper on 16 January 2017 at 00:31 Luziyca said Discord should be banned from OGF though.


Hide this comment

Comment from Luciano on 16 January 2017 at 00:38

Below is transcript from previous deleted diary entry - "for the record" and respecting everyone's voice.


Solution to the Discord problem Posted by Luziyca on 15 January 2017 in English (English) Since the past two entries made by other seem to be about "abuse" of power on the Discord, may I suggest that we ban all links to and from Discord? If anyone posts any link to any Discord, or discuss anything related to Discord, they can have their account deleted.

I feel that banning Discord will be the only way we can solve this argument and ranting between users, since it prevents these arguments from rising. We're supposed to be a mapping community, not a fighting community.


Comment from JoshuaRoadMapper on 15 January 2017 at 23:49 I agree. Thank you for this message, Luziyca.


Hide this comment

Comment from Myrcia on 16 January 2017 at 00:41

I think that the experiment over the last two days has shown two things:- (a) There is an appetite for a more instant and informal discussion space to talk about OGF which can't be satisfied by the User Diaries and the wiki (b) Discord has not proven to be a successful place to hold this.

More thought needs to go into a method of communication which can be overseen by administrators and mature, long-term mappers on OGF. One good thing to come out of this debacle would be a new platform to discuss OGF matters.

I have looked into both Riot.im and Slack this evening. Slack I've used professionally and it's great once you get the hang of it, a really good space to work on collaborative projects. Riot.im is a very basic chat client.

I'd be very interested to hear what people think, any suggestions they have and not to discuss Discord, really, ever again.

Hide this comment

Comment from JoshuaRoadMapper on 16 January 2017 at 00:45

I already agree on the Discord ban. The end.

Hide this comment

Comment from TheHolyEpicpenguin on 16 January 2017 at 00:52

This needs to stop. JoshuaRoadMapper's discord is utter crap. I got kicked multiple times for saying things like "LOL" and ".-." and also muted for saying "back" and ". . .". His other channel is actually not related to OGF anymore. He renamed it to "NeverAgainWillUseOGF".

Hide this comment

Comment from JoshuaRoadMapper on 16 January 2017 at 00:56

I meant to title it DoneOGFChat.

Hide this comment

Comment from Luciano on 16 January 2017 at 01:02

@Myrcia - several users have suggested IRC. I'm not sure how easily IRC could be controlled, however.

To be honest, I think a "forum" app would be a better tool than a chat app - a good forum can allow "back and forth" discussion on specific topics in near-real-time, but is easier to manage (i.e. prevent discussions from getting derailed).

Hide this comment

Comment from TheHolyEpicpenguin on 16 January 2017 at 01:04

Yeah, a forum would be nice. However, I feel like only official OGF admins should have ANY sort of power whatsoever.

Hide this comment

Comment from Myrcia on 16 January 2017 at 01:08

Does anyone know some good, modern forum software. PhpBB has been around forever and seems very old fashioned.

Hide this comment

Comment from Luciano on 16 January 2017 at 01:14

@Myrcia - there are some good free forum-hosting website services. You have to be careful to look at them before choosing one, making sure it doesn't have some "hook" requiring later payment (i.e. avoiding "free at first" type services). But truly free services exist out there. Alternately there are platforms like reddit - essentially that's just a giant forum that could conceivably host an OGF community.

Hide this comment

Comment from JoshuaRoadMapper on 16 January 2017 at 01:16

I use freeforums.

Hide this comment

Comment from dryerlint on 16 January 2017 at 01:34

I agree that a forum would be much better than a chatroom. Chatrooms are built for quick, casual discussion, that is usually quickly forgotten and requires the participants to be online for it. A forum would allow both real-time and long-term discussions, and I see it as a good choice for "medium-sized" communities like OGF.

Hide this comment

Comment from compdude on 16 January 2017 at 04:32

Oh jeez, what a bunch of drama! Glad I missed out on that.

Hide this comment

Comment from JoshuaRoadMapper on 16 January 2017 at 05:27

@comp I'm just glad the drama is over.

I'm glad that you missed the drama.

Hide this comment

Comment from Pawl on 16 January 2017 at 07:37

Well, that was interesting! And a shame.

Real-time chat can be good, but I have always felt that a forum would be more appropriate for a group like this, where discussions aren't quickly lost, people can participate in them when they happen to be online (especially important where we span a lot of timezones), and longer, more thought-out, contributions can be made.

But any platform can be mis-used and become antagonistic, so clear rules and mature moderators are crucial.

As for what platform ... as one who's old enough to remember when Usenet was the best thing around, I thought phpBB was quite modern! :-D But whatever is chosen, what I would be looking for would be something with well-organized areas for different subjects and discussions, navigable by subject, thread, latest posts and keyword search, easy linking and media uploads, and mobile-friendly (I thought the Discord app was good).

Hide this comment

Comment from Ernestpcosby on 16 January 2017 at 07:44

I wonder if I was the only one who saw no issue with just using the messaging system built in to OGF and perhaps the occasional conversation on a talk page related to an issue.

Mapping takes time. Wiki-writing takes time. And realistically, productive conversation takes time, too. And while I too like the idea of being able to talk quickly and easily, the benefit of having to write a comment on a diary entry, or a new line on a talk page, or write out a whole message, is that YOU HAVE TO STOP AND THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO SAY BEFORE YOU SAY SOMETHING STUPID THAT YOU'LL REGRET.

I'm not saying that towards anyone, because honestly, it's been like that for me personally. Every now and then I've gotten a response on a diary entry or a wiki page that's made me want to fire off a quick angry response. We're human, and I think as a whole almost all of us have had that experience before. The difference is how we handle it.

In my cases, having to take the time to write out an intelligent response in the form of a comment or in the form of a wiki response or even in the form of a message, gave me a chance to calm down and think again about the situation to give a reasonable, sensible, and thought out response that got my point across without angrily saying something I would have regretted.

In this day and age, people have gotten used to the luxuries of "instant". Instant foods, instant messaging, etc. (Now I can't really talk too much, at age 18 1/2 I'm probably one of the youngest on this site XD but still...) However, we often get so caught up in the conveniences of "instant" that we become compulsive, myself included. If I may make a suggestion, I honestly think that the status quo is the best alternative at the moment. Having slower communication helps avoid drama and arguments like this, because it forces us to think things through.

I feel like a chatroom or forum would be helpful in some circumstances, but the way I see it, if such an alternative is created, only admins would have access to the actual administration part, and access would ONLY be provided in the case of an important major discussion, such as back when we were discussing world time, or climate, or languages, and it would ONLY be opened at the admins' discretion. That way, no extra work is really put on the admins because it would only be open to use when they chose to open it, and it makes sure that users only use it when it is part of a larger positive OGF-wide conversation.

Hide this comment

Comment from Litvania on 16 January 2017 at 08:12

Discord is an amzing platform to discuss things, that cannot be satisfied by the User Diaries and/or wiki.

Hust because there was a bad fight yesterday because of these two users:

@JoshuaRoadMapper

@TheHolyEpicPenguin

Dosent mean we need to shut the platform down immiediately.

mfn

Hide this comment

Comment from eklas on 16 January 2017 at 08:29

I like discord because I don't have to write an essay there every time I'm trying to say something. It's also easier to use than the messages here. But well, whatever.

Hide this comment

Comment from trabantemnaksiezyc on 16 January 2017 at 09:01

@Luciano: I also agree with the idea of forum. As I said earlier, chat discussion is disappearing quickly. From the technical standpoint, one of the better free scripts is MyBB. @Ernestpcosby: Nah, you're not the youngest. Anyway, I dont think that forum = instant comunication. Forum would be the same as User Diaries, but discussion would be better categorised.

Hide this comment

Comment from bhj867 on 16 January 2017 at 09:17

What happened? Lol. I missed it. Dodged a bullet there.

Hide this comment

Comment from Luciano on 16 January 2017 at 09:22

RE Discord - please note, I did NOT "shut down" the Discord chat. I don't believe admin even has the right to control that - if people want to chat there, about OGF or whatever, they remain free to do so. The thing I shut down was only the discussion of Discord here on the OGF diaries (except for this diary entry), and even that was mostly because of the tone of the discussion, not be because it was about Discord.

I would be happiest if we could leverage our existing tools, namely the user diaries and the wiki, to drive all discussion on the site. However, the diaries are clearly limited, and the wiki requires a great deal of confidence and expertise in wiki markup in order to get forum-like functionality - although it's not impossible, as I've proven with my bliki experiment with respect to blog functionality. Wiki markup is very powerful, so in theory we could build a perfectly wonderful forum-type environment on the wiki. And the added bonus would be that by requiring users to use that for discussion, we can in essence provide opportunities to build wiki markup skills, too.

Having said that, I recognize some people will want to discuss OGF "off site" - whether in chat, or in alternate forum contexts, or google hangouts, or facebook, or their private blogs, or wherever. I think it is both unrealistic and unnecessary for us (meaning admin team) to worry too much about this. Inevitably, disputes might arise, as in this Discord case. Our only role as admin is to make sure these "outside" discussions don't impinge on the user experience here at the OGF site. And that is all I sought to achieve with shutting down (more accurately, "regulating") this discussion.

Happy mapping.

Hide this comment

Comment from EMKLI on 17 January 2017 at 21:36

I think, a forum would be a good place for "real world talking about OGF". Me personally, I have currently a few problems with the immense progress OGF made. Because there's so much content now, it is often difficult to find it.

  1. many useres developed some interesting tools for OGF (like the flight distance tool recently). However, those tools are very badly advertised. If you are a "not always on" user like me, it is much likely that you miss many interesting things in a structure like the User Diaries (I'm not very interested in reading backwards to the end of ages just for skimming and filtering all the news which I feel not directly addressed etc.).

  2. The Wiki is a nice place for presenting our OGF world content. However, me personally, I don't like the mix-up of in-game and administrative/"How-To" content. This is really unintuitive and difficult. I often spend too much time skimming though the OGF: meta pages while I'm searching for something. All this administrative and tutorial stuff is not well presented in my eyes. Not for long time users and especially not for new users.

However, my recent participation in the Discord experiment showed me what I already knew from other chats. There's too much danger of bullsh*tting alot. And another problem: some users, including me, made decisions of judging content from blue countries and deleting it on the fly, if useless in our opinion. This is not the way it should be. People should have time to react on such decisions, even when they are not online. Even if stuff is obviously useless for 4 persons, there might be other ones. If not, it's fine to delete stuff, of course. But this decision shouldn't be made in a chat room where lots of other things go on at the same time.

I like the idea of a forum. Especially also for all the "OGF:" tagged content from the Wiki. All the tutorials and so on. This would also make the wiki more clean and tidy as it would become just a place of pure "in world stuff". Also, a forum is a nice place to present new meta content.

Hide this comment

Leave a comment

Parsed with Markdown

  • Headings

    # Heading
    ## Subheading

  • Unordered list

    * First item
    * Second item

  • Ordered list

    1. First item
    2. Second item

  • Link

    [Text](URL)
  • Image

    ![Alt text](URL)

Login to leave a comment