Luciano has commented on the following diary entries

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¿No anthems in the wiki? 5 months ago

I will only say... so, you think there should be anthems? Then make anthems. Nothing is stopping you. But there is no need to complain about what other people choose to work on.

I have no musical talent, but I published the lyrics for one of my countries' anthem.

The the point about overwikification is valid. Focus on the map first. Your current mapping skill looks about the same as my musical skill.

If the map is boring or frustrating to you and you just want to build an imaginary wiki, then you are on the wrong website, and there are other sites that would be better for you.

Uletha - a bit of "real life" continent name history 5 months ago

I like knowing things like this. It's a kind of "out-of-world" etymology: metaetymology. Someday, when we have a real forum up and running, I'd like to have a thread about "where did your geofictional names come from?"

Thanks for sharing this.

Verisimilitude on a global level: on the ever-growing number of small States 5 months ago

@martinum4 - actually, my own work with databases in the past makes me think that it shouldn't be such an issue. But Thilo has repeatedly expressed concerns about the issue of OGF Attic data - I think because it's Geofiction, and not reality, we probably as a whole community generate a great deal more attic data than the real world equivalent - unlike the real world, we are allowed to keep changing our minds about things (such the locations of countries!) while this simply cannot happen in OSM. Attic data in OSM is mostly generated through stepwise refinement of mapped features, or occasionally revisions to meet newly established standards.

So although our overall dataset is much smaller than OSM, it is entirely conceivable to me that our "Attic" is in fact larger, already. I'm just speculating, but that's how I would guess. Thilo has mentioned the possibility of "truncating" the history through some means - essentially "cleaning the Attic." One simplistic approach would be to simply "copy-paste" the current OGF world into a new instance, so-to-speak. This could work if space is becoming an issue, but we would lose the history information attached to individual objects.

@Thunderbird - there have been many offers to help pay for OGF. Thilo's generosity, in this respect, remains unwavering. In fact, I don't think money is an issue for him, as far as I can tell. The problem is time. I suppose the whole project could move in the direction of hiring actual employees, and then using donations to pay their salaries. That would be a giant step, but one I suspect Thilo is reluctant to take. It requires changing OGF from a hobby to a business (if still a not-for-profit business, but nevertheless, there's a lot of complications and hassles attached to it).

Something Different: The History of a Square in Ostrina, Antharia 5 months ago

@stjur - I very much appreciate your comments. It's interesting that you view Tárrases as "complete" - if I had to put my own estimation on it, I'd call it around 50%. But then, it is my intention to do much more work on all the buildings - maybe not to the level of rooflines as you have done, but I want to record building-parts and number of floors. Partly this is because I intend to do a "full census" of the country - that is, I want to map all 250,000 residents, and where they live, because I want to work on voting districts and school districts and such things. Also, in fact there is probably not yet enough housing for the alleged population, so more suburbs need to be "filled in" in the central valley. Another thing I want to map is bus routes, of course, and many, many shops. Hence the number 50%.

Your confusion about the Ardisphere is understandable, but it somewhat depresses me, as I had hoped it was more clear and obvious. I know my wiki is badly done, anyway.

But just in brief: the Ardisphere is an immigrant country. The population is about 97% descended from immigrant peoples, similar to the US or Canada. The only truly "native" group are the Altazorians and their relatives, who speak a family of conlangs, with some influence from African, North and South American native languages. Comala, in 1000 AD, would be entirely native (pre-Colonial), and nothing to do with Koreans - "Quelepa" (the native name for Comala) speaks a conlang (Tlönian) and is modeled roughly on Aztecs or Mayans or Australian aborigines. The "Koreans" you see are immigrants, but immigrants who became quite powerful culturally and economically. Imagine if Uruguay had been taken over by Korean immigrants in the 19th century. There aren't really many parallels for this type of historical development in the real world - perhaps the closest would be a country like Singapore, which is in an originally Malay-speaking region, and had been a British Colony, but was essentially taken over by and dominated by Chinese immigrants. The Welsh you see (Ynys Dieithriad) actually has a real world parallel, in the autonomous Welsh-speaking communities in Argentina (wikipedia). Likewise most of the other language minority communities in Ardisphere are based on various real-world equivalents: the English speaking minority in Nicaragua, the German-speaking minorities in Mexico and Paraguay, etc. And I've added communities of various conlang-speaking groups as well. The map "shows" all these communities because Ardisphere differs from most real world countries in one key respect: it has a constitutional guarantee of the "right to your own language community" and hence places controlled linguistic minorities have their official names in the minority languages.

Anyway, to repeat - thanks for the detailed and thoughtful feedback, and as always, happy mapping.

Verisimilitude on a global level: on the ever-growing number of small States 5 months ago

@Alessa - actually, it's worse than that. It's not the move itself that's the problem, it's the fact that the OSM data model stores the move permanently in its "history". So a moved country exists in two places in the database: its old location (hidden, and only in the history), and its new one. You've just doubled the size of the data with respect to your country. In an elaborately mapped place, that's substantial.

As a related example: I just deleted my capital, VC. Which had a LOT of detailed mapping. But the whole thing is still there: in the history. So as I rebuild the city, I'm not replacing the old data, I'm just adding more new data. So the long term outcome of this remapping project is: VC takes up twice as much space, now.

Verisimilitude on a global level: on the ever-growing number of small States 5 months ago

A note in response to the "regions" talk from Udi / Alessa...

It is the current intention that the Western Hemisphere continents be culturally "themed." We have some sketches of ideas and the idea would be to attach as sort of "covenant" (like buying a condo?) to new territories, e.g. "this country must be Anglosphere styled" or "this country must be Sinosphere styled" etc. More to come, hopefully. Part of the issue is how to make those ideas fit with the currently existing Eastern hemisphere. Do we just ignore the Eastern Hemisphere, as far as coherency, and "start over" in the West? Do we try to retroactively impose these kinds of "zones" on the various regions and continents (resulting in a lot of dissatisfied people wanting to move their countries)? Thilo has expressed frustration, already, with the loads large country moves place on the server (it's a data volumes problem, not a processing problem). This is a kind of load the OSM software doesn't handle well - because it never arises in the real world. So we might have to settle for countries being where they are more from the inertia related to limitations of the software. I say this because, of course, I have been the number one OGF offender in terms of moving countries around.

Something Different: The History of a Square in Ostrina, Antharia 5 months ago

@stjur - perhaps I should have written more clearly about this: I was more impressed by your historical work than by the SketchUp. I try very hard to map in this historical style - though not so systematically as you evidently do. Most of what is best about Tárrases is because I adopted this approach, and everything I've done in recent times in Ardisphere is guided by this principle. I'm not very good at finishing things, though. The result is a bit amusing and disappointing, I'm sure: Comala is stuck at 1000 AD, while other bits are frozen in different epochs up to the present day, most commonly stuck somewhere between 1900 and 1940 or so, I guess. And I just took my capital - all of it - back to about 10000 BC. Reboot.


@eklas - I'm not sure I understand how the "flooding" stops you from mapping anything. It is a bit annoying in the render, but certainly you can ignore it when you do mapping - and in JOSM, unless you're hardcore about always having an imagery layer behind your work, it's essentially "invisible." Frankly I think mapping with the standard or Topo layers backgrounded in JOSM is more distracting than useful except when doing something specific like error search or vandalism patrol.

Something Different: The History of a Square in Ostrina, Antharia 5 months ago

I'm impressed, and a bit jealous, because I have no talent for that 3D render stuff. I guess I'll just have to imagine things that I've mapped, and stick to the things I do OK with, like my contours and such.

Verisimilitude on a global level: on the ever-growing number of small States 5 months ago


If that's the biggest problem, why not find more admin team members?

Heh. We have a project to expand the admin team. But... well, that project takes time, too.

Part of the problem is that the admin team doesn't have any kind of collaboration tool or workspace either. We just trade messages, which can be a bit "hit or miss" with respect to other members' noticing them and acting on them. That's not really going to "scale" well if we expand the team substantially. So some kind of "collaboration platform" needs to exist. And that takes time to build.

Still, we owe a better explanation. We could do better. I agree.

Labels 5 months ago

I looked at this briefly using JOSM and what I can say is that the park's boundary relation is not constructed properly. You have "inner" roles outside, you have "inner" ways crossing "outer" ways, etc. I think when you have a bad relation, you get unpredictable results in the render.

Verisimilitude on a global level: on the ever-growing number of small States 5 months ago

I think this is a valuable discussion, but I also know that some of this has been discussed before, and its frustrating to see things go "round and round" and always the same questions and same complaints and concerns. Always in my mind: "hey, didn't we talk about this last year? and the year before?"

Part of this is a lack of a good, coherent discussion medium (these User Diaries) are inadequate, and people seem find Blikis unintuitive and difficult.

I am a "sometimes" member of the admin team. I have been active lately, because of free time, but that isn't a guarantee, and my free time is currently decreasing. The other members of the team are in a similar situation. We're just volunteers, and very much part-time, on a "time available" basis.

That's the biggest problem. Yes there plans for "Gray Territories" - and hopes for a more structured, coherent approach than with existing territories. When will we get to them? Who knows? That's a lot of work. I have taken some first steps with the AR120 project (a US-style federal territories with a new collaboration model - you heard it first here), but even that moves slower than expected in every way, as neighbors prove uncooperative or uncommunicative.

It always comes down to a lack of interest in collaboration, frankly. Most mappers are solitary souls and find collaboration a burden. Perhaps I myself have this problem, too.

NOTE: as always, my comments are as a user, and do not represent the views of the admin team in general.


The new user responsible for the vandalism was sent a warning from admin two days ago. Like most cases of this sort, the new user subsequently stopped editing but of course didn't bother apologizing.

Normally we advise new users to NOT try to fix their vandalism - they're much more likely to make things worse than better in such cases.

It is the responsibility of each territory's owner to monitor for vandalism and to make repairs as necessary. Most active users deal with vandalism all the time - you have no idea how many motorways and unorthogonal shopping centers I have deleted from my territories over the years. It's just a fact of OGF life. Sorry it has to be that way.

It is not hard to use the reverter, if you are using JOSM (which it seems you are). Just download the plugin - it's pretty easy to use as long as you apply it quickly (i.e. before other edits get overlaid on the changeset to be reverted). There is documentation here:

Really noobie questions (I'm back to mapping, also I'm doing an urban development project on open geo) 6 months ago

I think another reason not to reply is I have no idea what he's even talking about (i.e. item #3).

Annum 6 months ago

Congratulations on 1 year! I made diary entries to celebrate my one year and then two years. So I understand the impulse.

May all your mappings be happy ones.

An imperial palace 6 months ago

That is very nice, actually.

It would be nice to have more names of things. I feel maps seem incomplete without names. You can use Chinese of course if that is easier.

Also, however: please don't post too often in these "User Diaries." Despite the name "Diaries" these are not really for use all the time. Please post only for Important questions or very rarely "brags" of your work.

Happy mapping.

Weekly Word; Hot Challenge 6 months ago

@Udi - you very much deserved to win. That there is fine mapping, at Mickle Iction.

RE: Hot. My non-entry for the week is less complete than previous non-entries. Ardisphere's active volcano (although mostly dormant in recent several 1000 years), Volcán de Guerra, is in an early stage of development. Really the only way to see it well is in the TopoMap layer:

The contours have some glitches and problems farther out, but the volcano itself came out quite nicely I think.

Have some relation problems with St. Richards 6 months ago

@Alessa's point is exactly right. The problem is made more frustrating, however, because apparently the Potlatch tool "square within square" that @Easky30 describes was NOT following the correct tagging schema. So anyone who used that tool extensively to create relations with "holes" has a big job ahead to go back and fix everything.

Weekly Word; Pheonix Edition 6 months ago

Well, in fact I had been somewhat inspired by this week's word (or maybe I was just inspired by my boredom with drawing contour lines!).

So I have been working at developing a "minor suburb" in Ardisphere's Ingerish-speaking region in the far south, on the little island of El Cabo. There's a suburb called "Federation Way" not particularly notable for much more than its bland, mediterranean climate, conservative politics, and hillside housing estates.

I don't feel it's "ready" to be an entry, but here's the progress I've made, using my typical "semi-historical" method - which is to say, what you're seeing is, in some respects, a snapshot into the area in maybe the 1940's.

Anyway, lots of great entries this week. Happy mapping.

2nd Day 6 months ago

For the record, analyzing the changeset log, for the 2 weeks ending yesterday, there were 222 active, distinct users. In fact, probably there are fewer "regulars" than even that. 90% of user accounts created never make an edit. Probably bots or something.