OpenGeofiction

Same Shares with Real World

Posted by TurkishSeal on 5 September 2017 in Turkish (Türkçe)

What does this world share wtih real world, I mean I've seen Religions are same but nationalities and their cultures?

I'm planning to create a Turkish influenced Turkish speaking country but can it directly contain Turkish Cultural elements?

For example: A kebab restaurant, A street which has name of a Turkish celebrity etc.

Are those allowed? If not, what is allowed which has a relation with real world?

Comment from trabantemnaksiezyc on 5 September 2017 at 11:40

We are generally trying not to reference real world stuff: - religions are a topic for debate, for me It feels a bit wrong to rename real-world religions, but others are doing it. - nationalities have their names changed - English becomes Ingerish, Polish becomes Galician and AFAIK Turkish becomes Turquese, but I'm not sure. - cultural elements like kebab are perfectly fine. Referencing real-world brands, people or pop-culture elements like songs or movies isn't. - this world is in no way connected to ours, so when creating history you can't refer to Earth or stuff like that.

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Comment from trabantemnaksiezyc on 5 September 2017 at 11:42

^ oh, and of course I'm not the person to decide here, but that's how I feel about it.

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Comment from stjur on 5 September 2017 at 12:28

Yes, you're allowed to include real world cultures in your mapping (without using any real world terms, neither people nor places, religions and food are debatable), many people do that, but I'd change the culture a little. For example my country's culture is based on the Romanian one, but it has stronger French, Italian, Turkish and Greek influences than in real life. When you're going to be able to choose a territory, you should try to find a region where it could be possible for a Turkish nation to be situated, read the wiki to find out where different cultures developed around the world.

As far as I know, I was the first person to introduce the Turkish culture and language to OpenGeofiction under the name Turquese, as a minority in Antharia. These people migrated to this place from the OGF-Arabic state Mazan maybe around the 5th century. If I was you, I'd try to find a way to include your culture in this history line. Maybe the Antharian Turquese minority actually came from your territory , which is somewhere nearby Antharia... I don't know. If you want to discuss this, send me a message.

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Comment from TurkishSeal on 5 September 2017 at 12:52

I'm planning to do Black Sea Region (800 mm landfall nearly and yearly temperature average of 15 degrees celcius) influenced country. I wasn't able to found a mild climate terriotry to start my country so I've request a tropical country from admin which has a climate slightly similiar to that region. Should I change place of my country?

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Comment from Ūdilugbulgidħū on 5 September 2017 at 13:22

Hi TurkishSeal Welcome to OGF! Yes, you're best starting off with a country closest to the place you are basing it on. Look at places that best fit your ideal climate and imagined cultural links. Although the countries near Antharia (UL114 etc) are reserved, you might be able to convince admin that your mapping plans fit in best there. You could also contact Rustem Pasha who is developing Demirhanlı Devleti. AR032d is another possible territory in that area.

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Comment from kingfries on 5 September 2017 at 17:37

Welcome to OGF! I don't think we already have a turkey here, or do we? But aslong as you don't copy it 100% any country/culture is OGF-able. So no Atatürk or Bosporus, but Kebab, and a large population in a gaerman country (hehehe). Anyways, welcome and have fun :)

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Comment from Rustem Pasha on 5 September 2017 at 19:08

There is no clearly Turkey in OGF. Ottoman Empire only. Maybe this pretends to be a Turkey but it is still on low stage of development. Kebab will be implemented when the time will be right.

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Comment from stjur on 5 September 2017 at 19:59

@Rustem Pasha What exactly do you say the difference between Turkey and the Ottoman Empire is? Only bilingual (Turkish and Arabic) town names?

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Comment from Rustem Pasha on 5 September 2017 at 20:32

Well, first we should answer what is Ottoman Empire. First, Ottoman turkish vocabulary is slightly different than current turkish (more loanwords from persian and arabic), which I try to incorporate in my mapping but it is quite hard (for ~100 years it is a dead language). Second is specific Ottoman culture and state organization, they are closely related things. For example in Ottoman Empire people didn't use surnames. They used only their official title after the name and sometimes the nickaname before name. Then in Ottoman Empire concept of nationality wasn't clearly present. Even Turks weren't Turks but... well, just people speaking the same language without any proper name. They were sultans subjects like other nations.

On the other hand w have secular westernized Republic of Turkey with modern turkish language and clear national concept (even their constitution highlights the concept of nationalism).

So in few words difference between Ottoman Empire and Turkey is like between Tsar Russia times and Soviet Union in Gorbachev times or Yemen and Oman.

So my territory has Ottoman administrative divisions, an active ruling monarch and Ottoman language and Ottoman names so it is OGF Ottoman Empire, not Turkey. Of course to keep my sultans in power about 100 years longer I had to modernize empire to current standards (for example abolishing the caliphate as Wiki article says) but still it is Ottoman Empire than Republic of Turkey.

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Comment from stjur on 6 September 2017 at 09:19

Ok, you have a good point here. I can't really identify the Demirhan nationalism or socialism on your mapping, only Turkish street names, as far as I see. There may be some Arabic and Persian loanwords, where did Arkanli get the Persian loanwords from though? is there an OGF-Persia?

I want to see how you'll explain the fact that there are two places - Antharia and Demirhan - across the planet where people speak nearly the same language, Turkish and Ottoman Turkish (maybe even a third one, but I'm not very sure how it's going to develop in the future).

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Comment from Luciano on 7 September 2017 at 07:43

@stjur - Turkish isn't the only language with this problem. As I recall there are three Dutch homelands, for example, and their individual creators have completely refused to work together (although one of them appears to have quit). There's not even a consensus on what Dutch is called in OGF. We have two Ingerish homelands, one official and one rogue, and several other Ingerish-speaking places that evidently have no concept of nor interest in how language diffusion works. I have completely abandoned hope for any rationality in languages in OGF. I recommend the same to others. Better to spend time on things where you don't have to rely on others' rationality.

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Comment from stjur on 7 September 2017 at 08:10

@Luciano Rustem Pasha and I are trying to find a reasonable solution through PMs now. And I really think that this problem with cultures and languages should and could be solved. Many users who are part of these problems are inactive since a very long time. I think that their mappings could be grouped by language or culture. And for new users who want to claim a territory, they should write in the user diaries what they want their territory to be like (like TurkishSeal did), so the OGF community could figure out together, which territory they should claim. This would reduce confusion (I was so confused when I first got my territory - I had Polish to my east, Greek to my west and French to my north) and it would make more collaboration possible.

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Comment from Luciano on 7 September 2017 at 11:10

@stjur - I do not wish to discourage your effort or optimism. I can only say that I have enough negative experience that I have despaired. My repeated efforts to make progress in various aspects were not just ignored but actively rebuffed. So I gave up. I failed after long dialogues to see any result in an "Arabic" cultural nexus to replace Mazan (whose owner was banned due to rule violations). Now we have this new, implausible southwest Asian / East Mediterranean nexus appearing in South Archanta without any well-thought-out relation to our "old world (Europe)" in Northwest Uletha. South Archanta in general is a hotbed of "wish I was in Europe" geofiction (though not the only one!) and I don't see any solution that will be acceptable to territory owners, since some of our "actually in Europe" mappers don't seem to give a damn. OGF's "Europe" should have started much bigger, but because of inertia and personalities it seems too late to fix.

Given strong opinions here, please remember I am not speaking as a part-time member of the "admin" team but just as an individual.

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Comment from Rustem Pasha on 7 September 2017 at 23:29

@Luciano - I can say I am really interested in finding a logical explanation why Turquese people are present in Antharia (it is a small minority, so it could be easier in that way). If we don't get to a consensus (there are some loose conceptions in PM-s, sometimes probably impossible to realisation like transition all countries from this part of Archanta somewhere to the north) which is possible, because it requires heavy changes in both countries histories, the thinggs will get complicated and incoherence will stay with us forever. Probably if I have started a new country again I would create a conlang culture just to avoid problems like that. Or maybe I would choose territory using other criteria.

Anyway, beside this I am really interested in conception why Uletha should be exactly a copy of Europe. Of course some cultures are really close related and should stay in one place (for example French, English and German) but why Slavs, Hungarians and Turks who are really separated culturally from west Europe should stay in Uletha as in Europe? It won't be much more interesting and creative seeing this cultures evolving without west European influence?

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Comment from Luciano on 8 September 2017 at 01:32

@Rustem Pasha - the short answer is: Linguistics. Specifically, the languages as they exist today evolved in contact with one another. Change the patterns of contact, and the languages themselves should be different. In which case, the use of "real world" languages becomes problematic.

A detailed example: Modern Spanish, on Earth, evolved in contact between Latin (Roman) and Arabic civilizations, with inputs from Gothic (German) and Celtic (Celtiberian - ie. pre-Roman) and Basque. If you rearrange these peoples on the map, and place e.g. the Arabs on a different, distant continent, now Spanish doesn't make any sense anymore - how can it have a word like "alcázar" if there were no Arabs bringing "القصر" with them? The modern language simply becomes a historical impossibility. Likewise all across the map of the World's languages. Modern languages represent historical relationships. This bothers me, given my training in linguistics. Most people don't care.

Another briefer example: Modern Turkish includes Arabic and Persian components (borrowed vocabulary that is integral to the language), so those peoples "must" be neighbors. Yet fewer people are aware that Arabic itself contains Greek and Latin borrowings (above referenced "القصر" itself comes from Latin CASTRUM) - so the Greeks and Romans (whatever we call them in OGF) had to have controlled "Arabia" at some point, as they did in real history. And farther back, the Romans borrowed from Etruscans and Greeks borrowed from Anatolians (Troy), etc., etc.

Everything is the way it is because of the way it was.

So even if our map of Europe has a different shape, the "who borders whom" question has to be sorted out to get a realistic language map. It's kind of a topological question, such as mathematicians address.

As you imply, a workable solution is for everyone to do conlangs. However, many people don't have the interest or energy for that - conlanging is HARD, and for geoficticians more interested in mapping, feels irrelevant.

If I made my own geofiction site, I might ban real-world languages. Or, on the other hand, insist on some kind of "colonial" backstory, e.g. that the real-world languages came from Earth in the form of colonists to a different planet - an explicit re-arrangement of peoples that bypasses the historical linguistics problem. But that's not what's being attempted here at OGF. Instead, we somehow want to create a realistic "parallel Earth."

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Comment from Portopolis on 10 September 2017 at 03:31

If there was a like button I would like Luciano's post. Both of my countries while based on actual languages will continually to move towards their own unique language, and I'm willing to do whatever it takes to make at least the region of Axia historically possible, I also would like to thank my fellow Axian mappers for doing the same and reaching out for collabs and other ways of molding the history of the peninsula into something believable. My other nation Lallemand has a lot of breathing room as an island.

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