OpenGeofiction

GREAT VINNMARK- Possible history?

Posted by adminero_us on 2 October 2016 in English (English)

Greetings. I've been thinking about some stuff about Vinnmark's history I'd like to share with you. During the 14th century, Vinnmark experienced its 'Golden age' and its territory occupied the now called: Clethmor (Klaitmör) Southclist (Söedige), Lanland (Lånland), Colensy (Klensk) in Wesmandy; Ventria ; Welstand-Westrijk; Shilesia (Sålskat); that big unnamed territory next to Vinnmark and some small parts of Esthensia. These regions later claimed Independence or were invaded by the countries they now belong to, but may still have some little Vinnish-speaking minorities. As you may know, the Vinnish far-right leader Blauer who invaded several countries, actually wanted to re-conquer the old Great Vinnmark.

What do you think? This is a map of how that Great Vinnmark looked like : Map

Comment from trabantemnaksiezyc on 2 October 2016 at 14:13

I like the idea, but we have to come up with how the languages came here - Shilesian is an OGF version of Silesian language, Ventria uses Slovak written in Cyrillic alphabet, Welstand-Westrijk as I can remember uses Austrian dialect of German (?) and the big territory is just plain nothingness with owner inactive since loong time - by the way - maybe it should be collaborative or blue?

There is an idea from me: Shilesians might have been concuered by Vinnmark in late XIII century, while proceeding to fight their land back in an insurection in the XV century. Later these grounds could be invaded many times by Vinnmark and UL176 (there could be some salt mines in the region + access to this lake that Shilesia has shore on + maybe some good trade routes). In the XVII century Shilesians attack Winnmark and temporarily annex some land, but later Vinnmark strikes back and borders come back to normal. Later there are more disputes, more invasions on both sides, Shilesians get concuered somewhere in XIX century by Vinnmark and UL176 where Vinnmark takes the north and UL176 take the south. This is where a north-south division in the country comes from, even trough the invaders were overthrown after ca. 50 years of ruling. There comes a short period of peace, a big war of XX century and we have modern times, What do you think about that?

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Comment from joschi81 on 2 October 2016 at 14:31

I like the idea - and I would propose, that during the "real golden age" of Vinnmark history, it has even been larger. I think Vinnmark must have been quite an important country during a certain period of the "Vinnic League" (OGF's Hanseatic League), otherwise, why else should the large Sea be called Vinnic Sea (or Vinn Sea) if not because of an important Empire? In my point of view, you should claim a large part of Kalm up to even south of Pern and all the coastal part of Estiensia for your "Golden Age" history! I'd be happy to develop this part of our common history together with you. Although I must admit that developing (old) history is not one of my strengths... I'm more the "detailed mapper". :)

There's only a few bits of Kalmish history in the Wiki so far - and nothing that speaks against giving up the north to Vinnmark during a certain earlier period.

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Comment from Pawl on 2 October 2016 at 14:32

Funnily enough, I was thinking of writing to you and Joschi81 about possible border variations in the Middle Ages, because it doesn't seem likely that our borders would have remained unchanged from then until today.

As far as Wesmandy is concerned ... Clethmor and Southclist already have histories as Wesman territories since at least 1268, and were part of the Kingdom of Devnun before that. Perhaps some temporary Vinnish occupation of eastern Clethmor could occur during a war, but no more than that.

However, maybe southern/eastern Lanland (with the River Lan as a border) and some of Colensy could have been part of Greater Vinnmark up to about the 1370s, but I have already established them firmly within Wesmandy before 1400. Perhaps (?) Vinnmark sided with the rebellious knights during the Venturers' Rebellion of 1365-69, and that conflict led to Wesmandy expanding into Vinnish territory.

Would these areas have been Vinnish or Franquese-speaking? (I would prefer Franquese!)

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Comment from joschi81 on 2 October 2016 at 16:21

@Pawl: What I wrote to adminero_us concerning Vinnmark history also applies for Wesmandy: I haven't made up the history for the northern part of Kalm yet, so I'm open for (almost) everything that seems plausible from a general/realistic point of view.

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Comment from Pawl on 2 October 2016 at 20:11

I've been having a bit of a re-think. Maybe the southern part of Wesmandy could have been part of Greater Vinnmark until the mid-1400s.

My idea is that the area was a self-governing duchy within Vinnmark, and in the 1300s the Duke married a Wesman princess, which gave his son - the next duke - a claim to the Wesman throne during Wesmandy's Fifty Years War (c.1402-50). In the end, the Duke won the throne and united his duchy with Wesmandy, separating it from Vinnmark. There would probably have been a war with Vinnmark over the duchy's allegiance.

The duchy would have looked something like this:

wesman-vinn-kalm-duchy

In this scenario, the Vinnish dukes would replace the Dunstans (Earl of Colenford) in this family tree: http://wiki.opengeofiction.net/wiki/images/3/35/Wesmandy-royal-family-tree-1400-heraldic.png

How does that sound?

@Joschi81: I notice you have a town called Kalmisch Thornford just across the border from Wesmandy's fiefdom of Thornford. Perhaps these were part of a larger territory which was disputed between Wesmandy and a Kalmish state. I expect there's plenty of scope for wars and alliances between Wesmandy and Kalmish states!

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Comment from Pawl on 4 October 2016 at 06:28

I’ve been thinking about this some more, and I am willing to alter my existing history so that Clethmor also becomes part of Great Vinnmark. It makes sense, geographically.

So I would change my proposal above so that Clethmor is the Vinnish duchy whose duke takes the Wesman throne in the 1400s, bringing his duchy into the Kingdom of Wesmandy. Colensy and part of Lanland, along with northern Kalm, would also be Vinnish : perhaps those areas are lost to Kalm and Wesmandy later (1500s or 1600s?) in some big conflict.

If we go with this, I’ll want to change some of my Wesman place-names to give them a more “Vinnish” (Danish?) feel. For example, “Clethmor” is an anglicization of the Caeltig ‘’Kledh o Meur’’, meaning north of the Meur (River), but perhaps it needs a name of Scandinavian origin instead.

Sorry for being indecisive. How does this work for you guys?

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Comment from Friedrich Kirchen on 4 October 2016 at 11:41

Welstand- Westrijk have already talk about the history relation with vinnmark. You can read it at the wiki entry. Westrijk was a kingdom and welstand was a city-states territory as shilesia nowadays. Actually, the welstand westrijk unification was at the moment of vinnish rebelion. The lenguage is a mixture of so many lenguages, most of it german, english but it also have spanish words trying to sound as german. Ive already talked with shilesia and we have that kind of goverment in our history, and we share some lenguage. In shilesias wiki welsish appears as the second lenguage. I agree about that big plain country. It should be colavorative. We can build it in order to find a real connection beetween all of us. Welstand westrijk con ection depends in great measurement with kulielka's battle and anders rebellion period.

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Comment from adminero_us on 4 October 2016 at 16:30

I agree about the plain territory, but we should make it collaborative, since we all know what happens there with blue territories, and I'm sure any of us would like to see rainforests and 4-million-people cities with Chinese names in a zone inspired by Europe.

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Comment from adminero_us on 4 October 2016 at 16:31

Anyways, you are invited to collaborate in the wiki about Vinnmark, since I'll probably run out of ideas and it seems like we can collaborate to write a decent paragraph about this.

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Comment from PColumbus73 on 13 October 2016 at 02:23

Hello! I am working on Drevet and Wustesonne. I'm currently reworking these countries, but the history has been that Drevet started out as a colony of Belphenia. However, somehow, Wustesonne broke away from Drevet, which I've been working on revising the history of these countries.

Wustesonne (originally named Vienna), is going to be a more Ingrishized-Germanic (Vinnish?) country. Belphenia is a Nihonish country, so I'm going with a mix of Ingrish-Nihonish-Vinnish(?) with Nihonish being dominant in the north/Drevet and Vinnish/German being dominant in the south/Wustesonne. The Drevet-Wustesonne region lies in a hot desert climate, so I think it would make sense that this area was (or will be) fought over for access to the 'New World', instead of an advanced indigenous population (to parallel our history).

It would be interesting to work with Belphenia and Vinnmark (maybe) to enrich the history of OGF.

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Comment from adminero_us on 18 October 2016 at 16:23

@PColumbus73 That would be great!

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