OpenGeofiction

Possible origins of Christianity (Christic Movement) in our OGF World.

Posted by zhenkang on 7 April 2017 in English (English)

(This is closed for discussion and possibly reinstated in the future when the world is almost fully mapped)

I have read this and thought up of a suggestion for the 'holy land', how possibly Christianity is spread out throughout the world and possibly where the locations stated in the Bible came from. I thought the Israel could become a collaborative territory in the future, or a set aside a place in UL137 for the Israel state if it become collaborative.

Possible location of an Israel-like nation (or state) in the OGF World.

  • Since our real Israel is near some Arab-majority nations and possibly in conflict with those, I thought maybe our version of Israel is possibly sandwiched between Suria and UL137. Maybe the Israel-like nation can be a state claimed either by Suria or UL137, its sovereignty disputed by these two nations, while Israel claimed itself that it was a nation, alongside with most Christians in the world. The AN possibly will not recognise it as a country though.

OR

  • One of those nations in the unmapped continents? It looks easier.

Possibility of the spread of the Christic Movement.

  • I think that if the 1st option is accepted, then it most likely spread to Suria first. The Arabs in UL137 would have rejected the Christic Movement and decide Jesus is a prophet, thus likely how Islam is formed. Those Christians in UL137 would then move to Suria and then spread from there, while the 'holy land' was destroyed by UL137 Islam activists. As it continues to spread by mouth, different groups of Christians may have different opinions and interpretations of what was spread before the Bible was published, thus I think there are Baptist, Seventh-day Churches etc.

OR

  • If the latter is accepted then possibly by boat explorers spread it to Uletha and then to other continents.

Names of the 'holy land' could be discussed in the future (I temporarily used Israel as the name). I bought up this issue because Easter and Good Friday is round the corner.

This is a quite sensitive issue and please be respectful.

Comment from trabantemnaksiezyc on 7 April 2017 at 13:57

As a beliving person, I'd like to put in my few words. Can we please leave Religion as it is in the real world? I know this is not what OGF is about, but many pepole (including me) may feel changing religions even for the purposes of OGF a bit... wrong.

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Comment from Portopolis on 7 April 2017 at 14:31

While i'm fine with it, religion is a very sensitive topic and at best I don't think we should replicate the religions of the world into this world. But instead either make up our own religion with no hinting to Jesus or the bible. We want to stray as far from real world parallels IMO.I'm fine with calling the religion Christic, but it's history and place of origin shouldn't be so close to the real world as it can lead to huge alienation in this community.

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Comment from Myrcia on 7 April 2017 at 14:47

I'm religious and I have no problem with creating new religions in OGF. It would be incongruous to keep real-world religions and nothing else. I can't think of any theological reason that inventing fictional religions would be considered blasphemous or idolatry as long as we don't feel inclined to begin worshipping them!

I think we've quite often discussed Christicism and I feel quite comfortable with Myrcia's pagan/Christic cross-over faith and the Seftnés which is based on Quakerism. I'm happy for other people to come up with a more solid theological foundation because it's unlikely it would have much impact on my mapping.

I'd like to come up with some firm names for the OGF equivalents of the other 'big six' religions of Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Sikhism and Buddhism because this influences what people call places of worship in their cities.

Just off the top of my head I might suggest:

Mohametism, Homedism, Mahamism - Islam Veterism, Archism, Synagism - Judaism Shevaism, Iaianism, Guruism - Hinduism Keshism, Khalism, Kacherism - Sikhism Trishnaism, Nirvanism, Mandanism - Buddhism

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Comment from Myrcia on 7 April 2017 at 14:48

Sorry the formatting at the end of that post makes it difficult to read my suggestions. They are:

Mohametism, Homedism, Mahamism - Islam

Veterism, Archism, Synagism - Judaism

Shevaism, Iaianism, Guruism - Hinduism

Keshism, Khalism, Kacherism - Sikhism

Trishnaism, Nirvanism, Mandanism - Buddhism

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Comment from Sarepava on 7 April 2017 at 15:10

I invented 'Hathetic Orthodox' as the main religion in Arataran. It's not meant to be equivalent to any real faith. However, consider that we are forced to use the symbols of real religions when tagging places of worship.

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Comment from Pawl on 7 April 2017 at 15:12

Because of their sensitivity, I think we should perhaps be more careful to avoid referring to actual RW religions in OGF. Christicism provides the structure and symbolism we need to create Christian-like places and histories, but we really don't need to consider its detailed origins and doctrine. That is a minefield, in my opinion.

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Comment from stjur on 7 April 2017 at 15:13

I really like zhenkang's idea, I also think the OGF Israel should be a collaborative territory (as Antharia is a religious country, I would like to have some Antharian churches or monasteries in the Holy Land). I also agree with trabantemnaksiezyc, the religion should not be invented, the Holy Land should be built according to the RW Bible. I named churches in Antharia after invented Antharian saints though, which I don't think is a really big controversy.

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Comment from Toadwart on 7 April 2017 at 15:14

I strongly dislike that religions have a close connection to real ones. These fake-real names like "Christic" are really disturbing to me. I have less pain with "Ortholic" as this is a more generic term (Greek for correct or something like that) But it becomes more painful again if the unreal religions are modelled bit by bit after the real ones.

Please be more creative. Mix things up a little bit. Why do the ficticious-Jews need a troubled country within a fictitious-Muslim region? Next we need a fictitous-Germany with a ficticous-Führer who was the cause for a fictitious Shoah. And as a result of this there will be a fictitious West-Berlin in a ficticious DDR, which of course has a Checkpoint Delta at a street which is coincidentially called Charlottenstraße (?).

Where I needed a religion, I made it fundamentalist and misogynistic, and that is the only detail I've given. I haven't named it or put into relation with any other real or fictitious religion.

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Comment from Ūdilugbulgidħū on 7 April 2017 at 15:16

I say wait. There's no need to do this at the moment. Happy mapping Udi

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Comment from Black Baron on 7 April 2017 at 15:29

The main religion in Castilea Archantea is the catajarism, similar to the ancient catharism, although the tahuel religion persists in the northern regions of the country. Also, I'm planning the construction of a religious way similar to the St James Way in Spain, which will cross all Castilea Archantea.

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Comment from Toadwart on 7 April 2017 at 15:40

@Udi Not that I am hurrying at all. On the contrary I would suggest to do this in a calm and thoughtful manner.

But why should we not discuss this now? Why is this moment any worse to discuss than some other moment in the future? Are we currently occupied more than usual with other issues?

For me this moment looks quite average and fully suitable to discuss things.

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Comment from Yuanls on 7 April 2017 at 16:49

I'd say that we shouldn't dive in too fast. Let the community make a collective decision, since religion is so worldwide. We need a solution that works for everyone so that no users are unhappy or offended.

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Comment from Ūdilugbulgidħū on 7 April 2017 at 17:23

The world - and OGF community - isn't set up for collaboration on big issues. If we spend effort in an uncoordinated way on complex ideas it won't have the desired result for anybody. The effort has to be co-ordinated.

But saying that, the first step to dealing with complex issues is working out what the issues are. We've got some way with that. We're all learning here.

There is no country yet which can demonstrate a long history in the map and wiki, a country that could be the root of a major religion. Religions have to come from the map, really, otherwise where's the proof ;)

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Comment from Alessa on 7 April 2017 at 17:40

(Apologies in advance for the lengthy reply. I've thought through so many angles of this over my time on OGF.)

I think Toadwart is right, we can tackle this deliberately if we decide to go there. Patience and understanding will be needed. So, there are three points here I'd like to toss the hard questions at. Then I'll add my commentary.

1) The first being a "holy land." Obviously for faiths that are user creations, this issue is easier. The question becomes: who owns it? Is it a community country, a partially-closed country with strict guidelines and/or limited editorship, or is it a single-user country? I think a lot of people would have a hard time if a single user was charged with a holy land; similarly, people would be unhappy if the holy land were a like a "blue country" that turned into a hotbed for vandalism. (As an aside, we're only asking for vandalism if we build a most sacred space for any faith based on a real world one.)

2) Related to the first is the "where" question. After all, we have Christic and Islamic-like faiths all across OGF. How did they get there? Without a logical flow of people that would have happened somewhere in the past, we could never truly pin things down. Christianity, for example, spread to major centers of government and military (Rome, Carthage, Constantinople, etc.) and along trade routes (Ukraine, India, Morocco, Ethiopia, Nestorian areas of central Asia and China, etc.). This of course doesn't address how all religions have spread through conquest. We'd need a unified history to do this. OGF doesn't have it and likely never will. Plus, I agree with Toadwart and the logic stream: "Why do the ficticious-Jews need a troubled country within a fictitious-Muslim region?"

3) Shared history also then relates to the issue of biblical locations. These, however, are only contingent on where the holy land is as proximity matters. I'm not sure this issue needs to even come up. In the real world, most of the definitive locations have been lost to time. We give our best guess, but many sites have multiple claimants. Why should the OGF world be any different? Two people want to claim the tomb of the great prophet from 1000 BC? Great! Do it! See my comment about sharing below.

Now, I personally agree with what Pawl seems to be suggesting. Why bother with it? What are we trying to accomplish? My biggest word of advice is to avoid overreach--a root cause of overwikification and superlatives. Does solving any of the three issues above help the mapping? I'm skeptical it would. It might be a fun project (and one I'd be happy to help with), but we're all quite busy with things right now. If the community agrees to have a "holy land" of sorts, let's resolve ownership, management, and where first. This has to be done before we even map. After that, we can map some holy sites. I still fail to see why the locations can't be lost to history...

I personally vote against anything (right now) that pins down the origins, doctrine, history, or spread of a faith. I'm a devout person myself, and I've named places and buildings after saints that are important to me and my family. So, "Sansu Luqas" (Saint Luke) and "Sansa Ludia" (Saint Lydia) are clearly important figures in Mauretia. All of the churches in their name show that. Here's the key: I don't define who they are; I don't claim their origins; I leave the modern to the modern. If someone makes the connection to the real saints, great! If not and someone else has churches named after Saint Luke, then I'm okay with that too. That's why I've called the faith in Mauretia the "Maurit Orthodox" branch. Why would I lay claim to all of the Alexandrian church? If another user comes on the site and wants a Coptic branch, who am I to stop them? We can share, you know. Later, if that user wants to collaborate and talk about how the two churches cooperate or schism? Then that's on us--and about our two branches ONLY.

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Comment from Alessa on 7 April 2017 at 17:41

Wow, did that formatting get messed up. Sorry, everybody. But, yes, please read my comment about sharing! :)

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Comment from kingfries on 7 April 2017 at 18:16

The Kingdom of Pasalia invites all atheist people, hehe. But seriously, almost all cities in the ,old world' are based around some place of worship. In European-style cities the church or cathedral will often be the center of the city. Therefore whilst not being Set and put in ogf-world its still one of the most important things for human settlements, aside from Access to water and food sources.

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Comment from histor on 7 April 2017 at 19:50

"Comment from Pawl on 7 April 2017 at 15:12

Because of their sensitivity, I think we should perhaps be more careful to avoid referring to actual RW religions in OGF. Christicism provides the structure and symbolism we need to create Christian-like places and histories, but we really don't need to consider its detailed origins and doctrine. That is a minefield, in my opinion."

I personally am strictly against a fixed holy land in the OGF-world. In Pawls words: "It is a minefield". Long time I had the hope, that religious discussions in the OGF-world is no earnest problem.

You can have churches or holy places of other religions in the fictional towns without any problem and harm. It is not necessary, to have in the background a detailled history of every religion. If you need any holy land, you can imagine it somewhere in the OGF-world. It must not be real and fixed at a certain place.

And the last, what I want to imagine for the OGF-community, is a "jewish" holy land surrounded by circumstances as in the real world. Toadwart here has found the right words - to which will lead us this unnecessary realisme of religious history?

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Comment from ruadh on 7 April 2017 at 20:47

I don't usually comment on the user diaries but this is, in my opinion, one of the worst suggestions I've seen since signing up to OGF. This fictional world can't agree a common climate yet so why would we consider trying to tie down something as complex and emotive religions? Besides, some of the most interesting stuff I've seen here has also been the least connected with the 'real' and this is way too real.. As others have said.. a minefield.

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Comment from Luciano on 7 April 2017 at 23:28

A minefield.

I won't touch it. I have personally decided that in at least two realms - religion and linguistics - I am basically boycotting the OGF wiki. I will create my own concepts and follow my own creative impulses, which I might or might not document in my own wiki articles. I have utterly despaired of the possibility of a genuinely collaborative approach to these things. Individual visions and approaches are too divergent. With respect to mapping: of course, I will "map to the render" as far as using the standard icons for churches, mosques, etc., however, take these notions with several grains of salt - the use of these icons might or might not be indicative of the actual concepts or religions practiced at those locations.

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Comment from ParAvion on 8 April 2017 at 00:37

I think creating the history of major religions like Christicism is a task a bit too big for all of us, since it's such a massive concept. Would a better idea be to look into the different faiths within certain religions? In the real world Christianity is divided between Catholics, Anglicans, Protestants, Calvinists, Lutherans, Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and so on. Likewise, Islam has Sunni and Shi'ite (and possibly other branches).

The reason I raise this is because I've been curious as to what different Christic faiths there are, mainly for the purposes of building churches and cathedrals. I've placed down the odd Anglican or Catholic church, but it doesn't feel right given this isn't Earth and we don't have Earth's religions. I would rather be able to say that here is an Inglican church, down the street is a Catalic/Cathic(?) cathedral, and on the other side of town is a small Ortholic chapel; Archics, Mahamists, and Shevists have their own places of worship as well.

Devising a history of Christicism (and other faiths) is fun and great for world-building, but would it be more useful to come up with religions that we can actually place on the map?

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Comment from ADB52 on 8 April 2017 at 10:15

Bearing in mind what goes on in the real-world religions, I am not going anywhere near it. I mark churches in towns and villages in Utterland, but that is purely to go along with the European-like theme that pervades that area of Uletha. In common with Luciano, two comments back, the practices within those places of worship I consider to be outside my remit.

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Comment from PortCal on 8 April 2017 at 11:22

I have often thought of the religions in the OGF world, but while following all the conversations about it I think it's a too dicey subject to agree upon just now. This needs a lot of debate. In the meantime, I'll keep most of my religious locations on the map neutral with just amenity=place_of_worship.

On the other hand, it's interesting to see many so daunted about discussing authentic subjects like religion vs real world religion, while culture seems more passable.

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Comment from Ernestpcosby on 8 April 2017 at 11:22

I speak as someone who believes myself, but I'd have to agree with Luciano and Alessa on this. Religion is a sensitive topic and I don't think it's the type of thing we need to get too in depth on or it will do more harm than good.

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Comment from BMSOUZA on 8 April 2017 at 19:27

I am a religious man.

My opinion: we do not NEED real-places-looks-like in OGF. We dont need a USA-OGF, a Russia-OGF, an Israel-OGF, a Japan-OGF, a Syria-OGF.

All my countries are christians, even Goytakanya, but this one in a different way. But is not necessary in my maps or history of them any mention about a religion that came from "Israel-OGF".

Is really important in OGF a place where "a man" was crucified? A place where a little guy killed a giant?

I think is not, even in wiki articles.

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Comment from BMSOUZA on 8 April 2017 at 19:41

About not so polemic things now:

The same way, I say we dont need:

  • a Rolling Stones-OGF, a Beatles-OGF, a Justin Bieber-OGF, etc

  • a Volkswagen-OGF (yes, I have one highly inspired, but it is not and will not be the VW-OGF), a Ford-OGF, etc

  • a Maracanã-OGF, a Wembley-OGF, a Real Madrid-OGF, a Scuderia Ferrari-OGF, etc

  • a Nike-OGF, an Adidas-OGF, a McDonalds-OGF, etc

  • a Rio de Janeiro-OGF, a New York-OGF, etc...

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Comment from stjur on 8 April 2017 at 22:13

I think a Place-where-all-christian-religions-come-from--OGF is definitely more necessary then an Adidas-OGF.

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Comment from histor on 8 April 2017 at 23:55

As I wrote more above: Why someone will have a real and fixed holy-land on the OGF-planet? Why it is necessary? As said = You can draw a christian land and an imagined holy land is at an other place. If you draw a landmap of p.e. Minnesota or Danmark, you do not care about a holy land, but sure you draw the churches and so on.

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Comment from wangi on 9 April 2017 at 00:18

What would be useful is an agreement on tags. As in building=church/amenity=place_of_worship/religion=/denomination=

Because just now the real word religions are used. If we had an agreement otherwise then the stylesheet could be updated to use those.

We don't need an Israel analogue.

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Comment from skquinn on 9 April 2017 at 04:29

I've been tagging the usual real-world religions where I've added places of worship across Rhododactylia. Should I not be? Is this something for which we should definitely not be using JOSM's presets?

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Comment from histor on 9 April 2017 at 07:06

I've too been tagging the usual real-world religions where I've added places of worship across Latina, Zylanda or Cascande (and in the past in Khaiwoon). Why take others? What is behind this symbols, everybody will interprete in the own manner.

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Comment from BMSOUZA on 9 April 2017 at 09:41

I think like histor in Comment on 8 Abril 2017 at 23:55.

OK, I have been rude last days, and my thoghts about it is only: Overwikification, overwikification, overwikification...

Think about it. So much time creating names to religious characters (Jesus, Budha, Mohamed, the Bible and the Quran, etc), writing a wiki article (an article about a OGF-Bible???? Seriously???), etc etc etc. And editing our own countries, not so much time to this task???

Really, my idea is, no matter where is the origin of the religions in OGF. I have places with names of saints in my countries, but no one needs to know where lived these saint people, what miracles they did, the way they died, why they became saints, etc etc etc.

If someone take a look in some country I edit, will see sometimes "São Rafael" and "Santo Afonso". It is not a mention to real saints (I am not catholic), is a homage to dead people of my family. But no matters to anybody.

I will say no more one word about it.

Bruno Moreira

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Comment from stjur on 9 April 2017 at 11:59

@BMSOUZA I thought we wanted to create the Holy Land not for the wiki's sake, but for the mapping, to have a structure in OGF's religions, to know why we actually add churches to our cities, because, after all, religion is the basis to every culture in the real world. This should be the case in OGF too, I think. Plus, a Holy Land could definitely strengthen the relations between religious countries and between their owners.

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Comment from histor on 9 April 2017 at 18:03

--- "to have a structure in OGF's religions, to know why we actually add churches to our cities," ---

Sorry, this is not necessary. Nobody miss a land, where industrialisation started, but railways are drawn in the maps.

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Comment from Portopolis on 9 April 2017 at 18:14

While that is true think about the conflict a holy land would cause. I am religious(I am Nigerian and that almost goes without saying) but I am more docile, if someone insults Jesus, while I will care. I won't let my feelings control me. Others are not like this and this especially goes for people who are say been immersed in Christianity or Islam or Athiesm etc. for their whole life all it takes is one suggestion to set them off and OGF will be destroyed. I know Athiests for example who think all Christians are idiots living in fairytale world and things like that. Even when they try to be nice it still comes out as insulting to many Christians, for me the religion issue is something that should either never be "solved" or solved last. Even race and especially language and culture are less sensitive than religion. I also think we shouldn't be creating new wiki articles especially about "History", unless it significantly impacts your mapping. We should only put statistics for states and cities in my opinion at first in the wiki so we can help gauge the size of regions or industries by region in our countries and maybe put some cultural aspects also.

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Comment from BMSOUZA on 9 April 2017 at 18:50

Me again

@Stjur, and anyone who may get ofended: Please, sorry if I used hard words. I respect your opinion, and I am not here to create fights, hehe.

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