Posted by Jesus Antonio on 9 June 2018 in English (English)

Hi there, I came back from my rest.

Now is the time I do like to ask you if I can build an Holocaust-OGF-Styled stuff? Let me explain:

I build memorials and all things like IRL holocaust. But instead of the IRL holocaust, I make an "OGF Holocaust" that wherein Garzibania (i will not write it in the wiki), Is that ok? Or is that too pretty bad that can get me banned forever?

Comment from zhenkang on 9 June 2018 at 03:59

The holocaust in OGF is the Pretanic Faction State. It is not so bad to create an evil nation, in fact we have too many utopia-like nations. But be realistic, dont be too extreme

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Comment from Yuanls on 9 June 2018 at 09:44

It'd be unwise to create a holocaust equivalent in OGF, both due to the sensitivity of the issue and the fact that it is simply uncreative. I think the most possible candidate for crimes against humanity, if unintentional, is Commonia during the Great War and its Civil War. A dictatorial state, ethnically and politically divided in a state of war. There will be losses on both sides.

I think it's not a wise idea at all to label nations and organisations simply as 'evil'. If you look deeper into history, lines become more blurred and reasoning becomes clearer. There are very few instances where people are evil because they just are. It's short sighted and shallow if you base entire countries on this concept.

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Comment from LemonKing on 9 June 2018 at 10:58

I think OGF definitely need some kind of holocaust-like history. In the name of versimilitude, crimes against humanity should't be specific to present-day dictatories (such as PFS) or developing, unstable countries (such as Commonia, supposedly). If we want OGF to be realistic, I think there is plenty of room for creating traces of a dark history of modern, democratic nations. Even in real life, nations and individuals are easily labeled as "good" or "evil", which does not reflect the real comlexity of the world. Even more so in a fictional world, as there tends to be an over-emphasis on utopias and dystopias.

So we should consciously break the pattern and make the "good" countries "less good". Of course, it should be done creatively. OGF is a constant balancing between originality and versimilitude. Copying holocaust into OGF by simply changing the name is not a good idea. Combining elements of the reigns of Hitler, Musslini, Stalin, Franco, Gaddafi, Mao etc might be a better one. Of course, it requires more thinking and more work, but isn't that the real treasure of OGF: It teaches us to think clearly and to work hard, hopefully for the benefit of the real world.

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Comment from zhenkang on 9 June 2018 at 12:51

I have to confess that I created my comment due to my short-sightedness. Yes, sometimes nations we consider 'evil' like North Korea or Hitler Germany could be due to issues like economic problems, and their beliefs and ideologies may have been eveloved from factors.

When I created Ming Sa Hing, a supposed brutal communist dictator of Singkangia, I created a rather brutal character (his policies in the nation) yet created a rather soft side of him. He can be considered like Ho Chi Minh, Fidel Castro and Kim il sung combined. Sa Hing will not disappear; I planned to re-use him as some leader of Kanglapo. (Stalin-era Kanglapo)

When I planned for Pointochinikia, I wanted Kanglapo to be a 'good guy', while ' Biangsinglia to be the opposite, and Kinglavia have to be mediator. However, I decided to do a mix for both nations. Maybe in the past they were, but as history went on, it gets more complex.

It is more interesting to do some mix, as this can be similar for characters in movies or TV shows. Sometimes villians can be good, and vice versa.

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Comment from Rustem Pasha on 9 June 2018 at 13:45

Most countries have some dark shades in their history and some not resolved problems are still existing. When I created Demirhan Empire I had that in mind and I tried to stay believable while writing history. On the other hand I didn't want to create another North Korea because one is still existing (PFS, btw mapping here is a very interesting experience) so I created some of that shades: one is during rule of Ahmet III, who was clearly a warmonger, and one started in 1963 and lasts for today. The country is limited democracy where some political activities (generally left wing) are permitted and the power is shared between elective parlament and the sultan.

I think it's more believable than creating an utopia where everything is going well but I understand the people who create such utopias. Everyone has just one or two countries to map and at least one of it tries to be better version of the homeland. I didn't go this way just because Galicja already exists and is doing pretty well.

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Comment from Myrcia on 9 June 2018 at 14:19

No problem with fictional genocides as part of a realistic history for a nation but I'm asking that we don't use the term 'holocaust'.

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Comment from bhj867 on 9 June 2018 at 14:58

I would consider what's going on in PFS an all out religious holocaust of sorts. But it is very localized.

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Comment from bhj867 on 9 June 2018 at 14:59

Pretany is not innocent though. The puragatio nortia could be considered a genocide in pretanic history.

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Comment from Demuth on 10 June 2018 at 11:00

I agree with Myrcia, I object strongly to using the term 'holocaust,' it absolutely should NOT be used. It breaks the rules of OGF for one. Even more importantly, it creates huge issues directly and opens up to even more problems in the future that I don't think the community here wants to face. Whatever humanitarian atrocities on a massive scale that exist in OGF's history should be part and parcel of the OGF world and make sense there.

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Comment from histor on 10 June 2018 at 11:33

to Myrcia and Demuth: I fully think in the same direction. This word in OGF is a "no go".

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Comment from zhenkang on 10 June 2018 at 16:50

I was thinking whatever human atrocities on a large scale, it should be considered for our planning of the world wars in the OGF world.

There should be another OGF term for Holocaust though.

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Comment from Yuanls on 10 June 2018 at 18:39

I'd disagree; the holocaust is a reference to a very specific event and in a similar way, other crimes committed by Nazi Germany were confined to a specific time and under specific circumstances. I do not understand why we would want to repeat that exactly. We can take elements from their motivations however. The Nazis did not invent concepts such as anti-bolshevism, racial superiority and 'lebensraum'; they had been in existence for decades beforehand. Antisemitism dates back millennia.

There are an entire array of atrocities committed during World War 2, pretty much covering every horror known to man. Genocide by systematic starvation (Nazi occupied eastern Europe), the Ostarbeiters (slave labour from Eastern Europe, including children), Einsatzgruppe massacres (such as Babi Yar), German concentration and death camps, Soviet crimes against civilians, POWs, deserters and even their own troops. Soviet and Polish retribution against Germany during 1944 and 45. Forced conscription and the creation of the Volkssturm. Mass suicide in Germany in the closing months of the war. The postwar expulsion and resettlement of Germans and Poles. The Allied strategic bombing of German cities. The Bengal famine. Human experimentation (Nazi camps and the Japanese Unit 731). Biological and chemical warfare (Japan against China). Chinese use of child soldiers. The Nanjing Massacre. Japanese death ships. Japanese labour camps. The atomic bombing of Japan.

Many of the crimes listed above are not limited-similar atrocities have been omitted before and similar atrocities have been committed since. I think there should be a focus on 'why' tragedies happened as much as a focus on 'what' happened. This type of understanding is able to put a new perspective on some of the events above. Whether crimes were ideologically, militarily or politically inspired. Whether they were preventable, inevitable or 'the only way'. We should work on a 'why' and 'when' in the OGF world, instead of slapping down 'a Holocaust with a different name'.

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Comment from Rustem Pasha on 11 June 2018 at 16:14

During the Nazi occupation there was no systematic starvation in the Eastern Europe. There was starvation more because of highly limited production of food and it was a problem for all nations in Reich including Germans (but of course they have much easier access to food than others). Nazis tried to eliminate people through work, not through hunger. There was systematic starvation in Ukraine in 30s but it was done by communists. That was one of the main reasons why the Ukrainians supported the Nazis during the war instead of USSR.

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