Calendar and Language Advice

Posted by Paxtar on 27 December 2015 in English (English)

Cleared entry.

Comment from Luciano on 27 December 2015 at 04:06


RE dates - I like that you have a different dating system, it adds interest. But since the wiki is in "Ingerish" as a kind of global standard, it would make sense to show dates using the "Gregorian" (or whatever we decide eventually to call it) in articles. Thus you can leave your date system on "authentic Paxtaran materials" but use Gregorian when discussing your country objectively.

RE names - I have struggled with the best way to label things in my multilingual country, Ardisphere. Right now, my "official Ardispherian" standard is to put names in whatever the local language is (e.g. Ingerish, Gohangukian, Bofobundan, Cambric, etc.) but show the place's name in Castellanese (the national language). Additionally with Gohangukian, since I am trying for some actually etymological meaning in the names, I am placing both Korean and hanja characters. As a result, I get a name like "과수리 [果樹里].(La Huerta)", which I like because it shows a lot of interesting detail about the place just in the name, and is more-or-less accessible to everyone because of the Castellanese in parentheses.

However, this practice has led to a bit of a problem, which is that very long names don't render well, and so often and at many zoom levels, a lot of places are unlabeled. Thus in fact I have been thinking of scrapping this system. But as you said, if I eliminate the national name in parentheses, then the name is less readable to many users.

On the other hand, if I go in the direction of labeling with multiple language tags (e.g. using some convention such as: name=Gwasusi; name.ko=과수리; name.hani=果樹里; Huerta; name.en=The Orchard), the "exoticism" of the names (which is part of the interest, for me) would be lost because only the "name=" would render.

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Comment from Portopolis on 27 December 2015 at 05:15

I had that problem in OSM, when I am looking for Japanese cities to get ideas for Hoppon. I often end up using the Google Maps site then going to OSM to look at the actual place. Although it is a little work it would help if OSM had the names of Japanese cities in Latin alphabet instead of kanji but then it takes the uniqueness out of the OSM drawn Japan like Luciano stated.

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Comment from histor on 27 December 2015 at 10:45

@ calendar = for "international" use I think, the "gregorian" is the standard. For "national" use - as Luciano wrote - sure can be an "national" calendar.

@ languages = In Latina mainly is spoken "latinian" ("spanisk"). But there are islands of "french" or "danish" or "dutch" or may be others, where the names of towns and streets in part are in other languages as "latinian". This is "regional autonomy".

Globally I think, that all names in OpenGeoFiction schould be too in latin letters, if they are given in other script. O.k. - cyrillic and greek is close to latin letters, so may be this can be stand alone. But hebrew, arabic, chinese, japonese and all others should be have too latin letters.

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Comment from Sarepava on 27 December 2015 at 18:55

There's no reason why you can't show both date systems in a wiki article. Any document about Russian or Islamic history will show both the Gregorian and the vernacular dating system and since the rationale for the Paxtarian calendar is a good one it should be maintained.

As I fill out the map of Karolia I wish to show place names in multiple languages, both in the two official languages and in border areas, something which is perfectly realistic with the real world. I usually do this either with parenthesis (where one name is used more than the other) or by creating two place markers and typing a different version in each (where the place is significantly bilingual or had a better-know historical name). Sometimes a town is actually split in two by a border - see Tolka/Tolcano on the Darcodian/Karolian border.

Transliteration from other alphabets into Latin characters is highly desirable. Sometimes even a 'different' English version is provided with just the diacritic marks removed (eg Schoenberg for Schönberg). I personally have an upcoming issue with the language of Arataran, for which I am creating a special alphabet. Naturally, this won't display so I have to show everything in Latin, or consider using the closest equivalent Armenian/Georgian alphabets (which still might not display).

I also notice some mappers providing railway station codes along with the name. This isn't usually OSM practice and may clutter the map in my opinion.

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Comment from histor on 27 December 2015 at 19:43

@ Sarepava = "I also notice some mappers providing railway station codes along with the name. This isn't usually OSM practice and may clutter the map in my opinion."

Can you please explain a little more, what here is the problem?

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Comment from Paxtar on 28 December 2015 at 02:06

Based on the above, I'll start updating my Wiki pages to reflect the common calendar system, but will keep Paxtaren dates on images. Where appropriate, I'll have both. Hopefully that will make it clear that I am not describing events in the Iron Age!

Cities and important places I'll re-label with Paxlingen names, and include a recognizable/readable form in parentheses if the Paxlinga version is unclear. Places that are not important I'll label in Paxlinga only. I'll continue to use the Latin alphabet for my Japanese province.

Thank you all for your feedback and advice. It is much appreciated!

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Comment from Sarepava on 28 December 2015 at 22:16

I see stations and bus stops in some cities with not just the name and extra codes like 'GSCX - Stacione Centrale - Line 1, 2'. This isn't usually how things are displayed in OSM as it clutters up the map in crowded urban areas.

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Comment from histor on 28 December 2015 at 23:49

@ Sarepeva = There are - as often - two sights of the things. One side is the clearity of the map. Therefore the things should be named after importance. OSM (and so OGF) is there not consequent. Often the lettering is missed and often the names are too big. So we must live with some compromises.

On the other hand railway-, subway- or tramway-stops are important in a town to see with the place and the name. But only short. Therefore I handle it so

  • railway-stations = only the name (and not infos as such as "Western railway service")

  • subway / metro - stations = only line # and name. The name without irrelevant informations as "street", "place" and so on. Example = 5.6 - Humboldt = means lines 5 and 6 stop at Humboldtstreet. And if two or more lines crossing the same street, all stations have the same name (in reality see New York or Buenos Aires) as example = 2 - Humbold (Crossing at A-Avenue) and 5,6 - Humbold (Crossing at C-Avenue). The guy in the subway will know, in which line he is, so I hope.

  • tramway-stations = no name. In reality the name of a stop is most the next street crossing the route of the tracks or a the place, where the stop is. But for can follow the lines simply, I set only the line-numbers as "name". Example = 1 or 4.6 or 2-5.15 or 4.6-9.14

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Comment from isleño on 30 December 2015 at 10:00

Just wanted to say I really like the Paxtaren dates and would love to see them kept alongside the "standard" dates, wherever you feel it works well. I wish there were more countries with unique calendars. :-)

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