Another visit to Tárrases

Posted by Luciano on 26 November 2016 in Korean (한국어)

I was very impressed by the quality and detail of recent feedback given to other users, e.g. Myrcia, so I decided to throw myself out there, too.

As many know, my current project this past half year or so has been the city-state of Tárrases. I don't feel that it is complete, but it has definitely reached a point where I feel somewhat happy with the progress I have been making.

Some statistics:

  • 198.6 sq km land area
  • 390,000 proposed population
  • ~6900 named objects
  • ~29000 buildings
  • ~1030 km of tagged highways
  • ~276 km of tagged waterways (including irrigation ditches)

Also worth exploring - the topo view:

So take a look, and please give some constructive criticism, or any ideas, suggestions or observations. I want to hear them. I may not always follow all advice (I'm somewhat stubborn), but I still would be happy to hear it.

Location: Escarpas, Tárrases

Comment from Yuanls on 26 November 2016 at 15:19

Wow! I love it! I can't think of any advice to give-I'm miles behind in terms of mapping ability. I think it looks great though. How long did it take you to complete it?

Hide this comment

Comment from Sarepava on 26 November 2016 at 15:55

I'm curious as to the function of the railway line. It doesn't appear to serve the oil terminal, but has no passenger stations either.

Hide this comment

Comment from isleño on 26 November 2016 at 18:41

Amazing as always. Do you have any strategies in mind for how to expand this level of detail across larger areas like Mahhal?

Hide this comment

Comment from Thunderbird on 26 November 2016 at 19:51

This is simply amazing mapping. 100% complete, great detail, and lots of thought put into it. Never knew this island was here before.

I have absolutely nothing bad to say about the mapping. This is an example for everyone else to follow!

As far as realism, I do have some questions: * What are the landuses with names like ".mr delta" or ".mr psi" * What is the climate on this island? It is very far south, but the layout makes it seem as if it is a temperate island destination. Is the climate ideal for as much farming as there is now in the valleys considering the amount of glaciers on the mainland to the west? * Is 390,000 a realistic population figure considering the island is about 70 square miles? Keep in mind that at least 60% of the island is non-residential. I would suggest reducing the population somewhat.

Also: I love the tram system you've made. It is beautiful.

Hide this comment

Comment from Thunderbird on 26 November 2016 at 19:51

^Messed up on markdown.

Hide this comment

Comment from Luciano on 26 November 2016 at 21:56

Thanks all for the feedback, so far.

@Yuanls - with respect to "creation time" - I started it about 2 years ago, but didn't do much with until about 6 months ago, when it became my main ogf project. Since then, maybe between 0 and 10 hours a week, depending on other activities.

@Sarepava - the railway is a "legacy" short-line cargo-only line (never passenger). In practical terms, I don't think it gets used much, these days, but perhaps in the 1930s-1960s it served as a way to move manufactured goods/agricultural products between the main inland areas and the ports at each end. I see it as being mainly a right-of-way at this point, along which I have been thinking of expanding the light rail line to the east.

@isleño - I have no idea if it will be practical to expand this level of detail across all of Mahhal. The first step is going to be completing a topo map for the entire archipelago - that in itself will be a several month long project, I suspect. After that, I'll begin thinking about landcovers ... but I may not do as much detail as I did for Tárrases.

@Thunderbird - ...

the landuse names are temporary - they help me organize my mapping work, since the symbols are quickly visible in my huge list of landuse relations (everything in the island is done with relations). So when I draw a new bit of forest or a residential spot, I can grab the right relation from the list easily. I'll delete them when I am no longer actively mapping the area.

the problem of the island's latitude is the one "lack of realism" issue that bothers me the most. I have had extensive conversations with several users about climate issues related to Tárrases and Mahhal, and here's the current idea: there's a warm current down the east coast of Antarephia, giving the archipelago a Norway-like climate (or even slightly warmer). Think temperate rainforest, like Southeast Alaska, southern Chile or southwest Norway, where average temperatures are rainy and just above freezing despite the latitude. Supplement this with some slightly "non-earth-like" agricultural practices (e.g. I have invented a variety of temperate rice, Mahhalian Blue Rice, inspired by north American wild rice). This allows the land to support higher population densities. If there were a strong consensus in OGF that the climate idea was too unrealistic, I would probably react by abusing my admin privileges and moving the whole archipelago 10 or 15 degrees northward (this is tongue-in-cheek, but I am strongly attached to Mahhal's climate, which predates its arrival on the OGF map by about 30 years in my imagination).

the issue of population doesn't bother me - I live in Korea, which has much higher population densities, and I feel that North American perceptions of sustainable population densities are quite unreasonably low from a global perspective. Consider that this is a picture of my neighborhood, in the far northwest suburbs of Seoul. I have drawn many high-rise apartment blocks in Tárrases, and I have started work on a building-by-building population estimate, because I plan to work out some electoral districts and voting patterns, all of which has me thinking that if anything, the population may increase a bit. If you consider there are 30000 buildings drawn, then I'm only around 13 or so inhabitants per building, on average. If a major proportion of these buildings are high rise apartment blocks in the Korean style, then things are quite realistic (if cozy). Seoul has a population density of 6700in/kmsq (and this includes huge "rural" parts like Bukhansan Park, which are inside the city limits). If this population density were applied to the "built-up areas" of Tárrases (let's say about 60 km sq, i.e. 30% of land area), that would give a population of 400,000. This is, in fact, where the original number came from.

thanks for the note on the tram - I'm quite pleased with it, too, and may end up expanding it further.

Hide this comment

Comment from Portopolis on 27 November 2016 at 00:02

The only thing I thought that was possibly off was population, but since you did building per building population you probably have better numbers than I do. When I saw your main urban center I was thinking more along the lines of Geneva and thee density of the Canton of Geneva. I just felt your urban population must live in a really dense area for the population to shoot up so quickly on such a small island.

Your island also reminded me of Malta It seemed it would have a similar density to that nation IMO. So personally I feel the urban area for how small it is makes the numbers seem a bit big.

Hide this comment

Comment from Luciano on 27 November 2016 at 00:26

@Portopolis - thanks for your thoughts.

My mind is open to the need to revise population figures. But so far, everything I have looked at leads me to think my initial estimates are about right. As I said, I'm going to be doing some building-by-building census work, and we'll see how that pans out.

Actually, I think Malta is a very good comparison, so consider: population density of Malta is, overall, 1410 in / km sq. Current proposed Tarrasean density is 1950. Statistically, that's not far off - it means adding about 4 persons per building - putting two kids in each bedroom, Asian style, instead of one would more than cover it, or adding a rooftop or basement apartment (perhaps illegally). Assuming a wider incidence of Korean-style high-rise apartment blocks, I think it lines up nicely. Malta seems to have very few high-rise apartments, as far as I can tell.

Hide this comment

Comment from Thunderbird on 27 November 2016 at 01:28

Ah, I didn't think those buildings were high rise apartments. I figured they were at most 6 or 7 floors. I'm planning to do some research into average families per household and per building across the world.

Hide this comment

Comment from Myrcia on 27 November 2016 at 10:05

I spent a long time looking at Tárrases trying to come up with some constructive criticism but I really can't find much of anything wrong. It is one of the most realistic areas in OGF.

I do wonder if there could be more tagging of retail stores in the shopping areas. There is some but they seem quite spread out compared to shopping areas in European cities.

Take a look at Rotterdam for example:

Hide this comment

Comment from Luciano on 27 November 2016 at 10:30

@Myrcia - thanks for your comment. In fact, that's a great point. I feel like I haven't made much progress in tagging businesses in general. It's a slow process, because I am committed to properly "branding" and naming any locations I add (i.e. I don't allow myself to just put generic e.g. "shop=clothes" or "amenity=restaurant" tags). I have extended invitations to other users who want to add franchises of their businesses, and there have been some notable contributions, but it's a slow road.

Anyway, that's definitely one aspect of the city state that is far from complete.

Hide this comment

Comment from Pawl on 27 November 2016 at 14:48

I can't think what to criticise! This looks to me like a gold standard of OGF mapping, and if I end up producing something half as good I'll be very pleased!

Hide this comment

Comment from Ūdilugbulgidħū on 28 November 2016 at 20:10

Tárrases becomes more and more amazing, more real than many places in OSM in its mapping. Incorporating the topomap has made a big difference to the landuse, that really works now as well.

I agree with the biggest issue being the island's latitude. Judging by landcover, Tárrases is probably warmer than the places at a similar latitude in Atlantic Norway (itself warmer than W N America?). The settlement patterns and density might be more feasible if it wasn't so mountainous, but if we assume something like 2°C temperature drop per 1,000ft (300m), the mountain villages become very cold. Perhaps more importantly psychologically, villages on the southern side of mountains (like the capital) would be, at this latitude, sunless for long into the spring (you could actually calculate this, given that you have all the mountain heights... maybe some reflective mirrors might even be employed). We've talked about it all before, I know. I don't think there would be any problem moving the country (Mahhal too) 10 degrees or so northwards, aesthetically, if not technically. Whatever works best for the way you've envisaged it.

There are a couple of other things you could think about. The houses: the variety of size is great, and they are not all rectangular. How about adding some extensions, lean-tos, porches, doors, L-shapes for a bit of extra realism. Maybe people need porches/drying rooms/garages for the high rainfall/long dark nights? But that is a minor criticism, really. If you have apartments, they might lack these anyway. The ski-areas- these look very realistic, very alpine. The issue I have with them is that alpine isn't maritime, and this sort of works against the things I discussed above.

I think we also have slightly different ideas about what the vegetation might be, but since there isn't any land like this in the real world, really that has to be left a personal choice for you. There will be a way to make it work.

Hide this comment

Leave a comment

Parsed with Markdown

  • Headings

    # Heading
    ## Subheading

  • Unordered list

    * First item
    * Second item

  • Ordered list

    1. First item
    2. Second item

  • Link

  • Image

    ![Alt text](URL)

Login to leave a comment