OpenGeofiction
Fasten your seatbelts, we’re in for what could be a very bumpy conversation (if you have the patience to read my looooong post)!
Diogo sent me a mail not so long ago pointing out that human rights haven’t gotten much attention in the OGF wiki. He proposed creating an international GLBTQ organization, which I thought was a good idea. But as I chewed on it and thought about previous conversations I’ve had with Udi, I realized it poses a bigger question: Does verisimilitude – keeping things as realistic as possible – mean that racism, sexism and homophobia are problems in OGF? Are these particular ism’s endemic to humans and human behavior, even OGF humans? A few thoughts: # Gender and Sexism This already exists in the OGF wiki just by virtue of what’s been written so far, it may not be as bad as IRL but it still exists (as I’ve written earlier, an earlier look at biographies on the wiki showed 29 women, 51 men and 12 of indeterminate sex; a random sampling of heads of government i.e. president, prime minister or in some cases both, showed 7 women, 18 men and 5 of indeterminate sex; the emphasis on men’s sports, etc). So I think gender inequality is definitely a problem that organizations national and international could address in the wiki. # Race and Racism This has barely been touched on in terms of discussion. There’s been much more discussion of languages and their origins, plus numerous mentions of “indigenous” populations, but mentions of race are pretty much restricted to descriptions in a very few countries’ ethnic populations (a random check of about 40 countries found only two mentions of white/black). But is race an artificial concept that is not necessarily endemic to human nature? If it’s already been written in some wiki articles, do we need to continue to do so, especially if it’s such a small number? If we do think we should, what are the races in OGF and what’s the thinking in dividing up people in such terms, can it realistically be done differently than how it’s traditionally been done by the dominant cultures IRL? Am I naïve and being unrealistic in wanting us to stick to ethnic conflicts and assume a world where race definitions and perceptions and racism that exist in the real world aren’t the same problem in OGF, that in OGF it’s much more diffuse with many, many ethnicities as defining characteristics of differences between people rather than race? (In some ways, the stranger distribution of uncommon cultures next to each other makes this plausible in my mind, although it should create more conflict on a smaller scale worldwide.) # Sexuality and the rights of sexual minorities Now we get to my discussion with Diogo. This has been barely touched on. A few country descriptions mention laws protecting sexual minorities, at least one country has a law that discriminates against them, but that’s about it. So, have sexual minorities historically been discriminated against and why? What role does religion play? (And we definitely haven’t come up with good descriptions of analogs to Judaism/Islam/Christianity not to mention other possible religions with or without IRL analogs, although there is one wiki page on Religion in Tircambry – the OGF analog to Christianity – in Tircambry, a description of the OFG Gitaenhōlyuē religion of Kojo and some descriptions in country pages.) Can we envision a realistic world where GLBTQ people basically haven’t been discriminated against for the most part? Again, am I being naïve and unrealistic in wanting us to have a much more GBLTQ-friendly world (with exceptions of course where people want their countries to not be)? *** In summary, I’m not sure that this requires much action or consensus. The status quo is maybe good enough, and there is at least one clear human rights issue of the above, gender equality, that should get its due in the wiki. And there are many, many other human rights issues - hunger, poverty, housing, hygiene and water access, access to healthcare, freedom of speech and press, just to name a few off the top of my head - that are definitely very worthy of attention in the wiki in terms of organizations, institutions, media, politics etc focused on these issues. I guess I’m setting myself up for a lot of future wiki writing ;-).
Still I’m curious, what does everyone think about this?
Discussion
Comment from Reece202 on 7 July 2016 at 14:16
As I’ve been trying to develop Calliesanyo and it’s associated territories, I’ve been trying to address some of these things, mostly in some of the ‘off-site’ resources I’ve got either on my local machine or Google Docs, but I haven’t really manifested them ‘on-site’ since there hasn’t been any sort of visible line denoting what is and isn’t acceptable to the community.
On a similar note, (at least in my perspective), there is a difficulty in trying to create objectively different ideas of things, especially race, in a way which doesn’t accidentally come across as offensive in a real-world context; that is to say (for example) that conceptually I see Calliesanyans and Cimenoirens as having different skin tones–How can I objectively describe the ethnic tensions between them without it sounding like real-world ‘color racism’.
On the whole, I’d like to see more published on human rights matters, it just seems to me there is a general cautiousness that needs to be applied to make sure that any real world vitriol doesn’t leak into OGF world controversy
Comment from deltanz on 7 July 2016 at 14:31
Wow, I couldn’t have said it better (and I’m glad my mail turned out to bring this discussion to live)!
I believe it’s too naive to assume that OGF wouldn’t have the same human rights problems that we do have in the real world, but at the same time I’m sure we could have a world that is more evolved in this sense, a world that has gone through the discussion we go through right now in the US, in Europe, in Brazil, in Australia, in Canada, in the United Nations and so on. I chose to make my country in OGF, Neo Delta, a country that respects civil liberties and protects minority groups because in the past they’ve suffered discrimination, so my country went through all the steps necessary to fight this problem.
If you choose to create a country that is not so open to minority groups and does not respect civil liberties, at least you would have to deal with two consequences: 1. Domestic unease due to the lack of freedom (so you should address in the wiki or in the News section that the population of your country, or at least parts of that population is unhappy with the current government); and 2. International unease - the countries and the international organizations that chose to respect civil liberties and human rights should take a stance against the practice of the countries that do not respect those rights.
Well, that’s how I think we should act, I don’t think there is any doubt whether or not human rights should be respected, right? So if a country chooses not to respect them, we should position against it in our discourses.
Comment from Luciano on 7 July 2016 at 14:57
This is really difficult for me to address directly, because… well, as I’ve mentioned elsewhere, Mahhalians and Ardispherians were not, originally, even humans in my original conception. The “verisimilitude” requirement has compelled me to “retcon” those cultures into human molds, but the consequence is that I don’t really want to invest a lot of energy to cooperate with the limiting categories accessible to “humans.” I have deliberately left the racial situation in my countries fairly vague - and I intend to leave it that way. Their linguistic and religious diversity could be viewed as a kind of elliptical surrogate for racial issues, which I think is how I would prefer to approach it. I have somewhat deliberately persued some degree of gender equality, at least more so than would be expected in a truly earth-parallel Latin-Americanish country, but I tend to stay away from questions of sexuality (in opposition to gender), partly out of a desire to avoid controversy (try living in South Korea for a decade and see how your instincts for social conformity develop), but also because in original conception Ardispherians and Mahhalians were aliens, and that means… well, I leave it to your imaginations.
I appreciate the conversation and the value it has to many users, but to some extent I see it as a red herring vis-a-vis my own approach to geofiction. But I already lost the debate over verisimilitude, so I just feel there are some conversations I can’t legitimately participate in. I’ll follow the community’s lead.
Comment from trabantemnaksiezyc on 7 July 2016 at 15:06
Okay, I am propably the first conservative to say something here. Sorry if I offended someone, these are just my personal views.
@Demuth: 1. Why you think homophobia is a problem? I actually think LGBT and transsex are a dangerous problem. 2. Gender inequality? As we have Verisimilitude, so trying to keep stuff realistic - it is basically not a problem. Of course leftist politicians will say completely other things but still - in real world man and women are equal, so in OGF world they are equal too. And why there is not as much woman as man as heads of government you ask? Well, keep in mind that this world is in constant construction. Many countries have no wiki article, or just no owner, so propably there will be place for some woman politicians in OGF. 3. Today there is basically no racism against minorities. Id say more - there were situations where pepole other than white were breaking the law, and they (with their families) were saying that pepole who arrested them were racist just because they arrested them. Term of racism is very often misused.
@deltanz: I disagree with you. Countries who protect minorities are often more unstable than these which do not. Look at todays EU - France, Germany, BeNeLux countries and some other states are struggling, African immigrants (minority) are constantly attacking local pepole, they create no-go zones and are just taking money from their governments. On the other hand, Visehrad group countries are refusing to let them in, their economy grows, they don’t have terrorist attacks and no-go zones are nonexistent. Are they facing any concequences? No, they aren’t. This is why i think countries who accept other minorities are unstable and these are the countries who have riots on streets.
Ending this, I think that we should decide on our own how we want our countries to be ruled and what happens there. I am leading Antharia just as my personal views are.
Comment from Ūdilugbulgidħū on 7 July 2016 at 16:06
Everyone who maps here adds elements of their own views. It can’t be any other way. The most important thing to remember is that there is a big difference between the fiction of what is in OGF and what we think as individuals.
Whatever we decide about our countries, the most basic rule of verisimilitude is that we work together to fit these countries into the OGF world, otherwise the world itself becomes illogical and unbelievable. We need to communicate more about this. Countries where a particular system prevails would be unlikely to have good relations where a different sort of system is in place. Fair enough. There is North Korea and there is South Korea. But to get this to be realistic in OGF, to have these differences of opinion between the people in our countries - our own created characters - we have to work together: a tense border between states, an AN mandated area, overseas military bases, a historical war between different ideas or ideologies. Differences of opinion don’t mean we can’t talk to each other.
These real world tensions issues must exist in OGF. There must be as many issues as in the real world, probably even more - given that one real world person can equate to millions of OGF people. The rule of verisimilitude again means that even if things that happen in the real world aren’t acceptable to us as individuals they must still take place in OGF. Perhaps it doesn’t even matter whether they’re in the wiki or not. Imagine OGF is some sort of parallel of the real world - which is what the set up indicates. Somewhere in OGF, all these real world things must be happening, or have happened, or be held as views. If we think OGF is not less than the real world, that has to hold.
The OGF canon is developing, but it hangs together very loosely. Perhaps the reason there is not much about different religions is that no-one really knows what the influence of any religion was, or has even come to a decision about the name of religion. How did we get to the present day structures and ideas? How much freedom do we have to devlop this? We need to work this out.
So we can really only decide what happens in the places were mapping and wiki-ing. If there is more/less focus on human rights overall, the only way we can change that is by creating countries that bring it up the agenda, or which illustrate ideas we’d like to challenge, or which add a different line in the story. So use OGF to do this, it creates depth - and who knows, it may make us think more about the real world. I sort of think it can even change us.
Comment from Myrcia on 7 July 2016 at 16:30
I don’t know how I’d feel existing in a community where statements like “I actually think LGBT and transsex are a dangerous problem” and “Today there is basically no racism against minorities” went unchallenged.
Those are abhorrent views and there is no place for them here.
Comment from Myrcia on 7 July 2016 at 17:12
I just want to clarify something. There needs to be a distinction between IC (in character) and OOC (out of character) here on OGF. Someone may create an IC fascist country with abhorrent racist and homophobic views and that I would have no problem with and would even welcome if done well.
When someone comes into our community and makes racist and homophobic comments OOC then I think that’s unacceptable. Most forums have rules against such remarks and I don’t see why we should be any different just because we allow IC countries to express racist views.
I have no problem with conservatives feeling welcome here but there’s a difference between conservatism and hate speech. A line trabantemnaksiezyc has overstepped.
We ought to make LGBT, female and POC mappers feel welcome here. We all know this is a bit of a white men’s club so why encourage mappers with trabantemnaksiezyc’s views at the expense of creating a more diverse and welcoming community.
Comment from trabantemnaksiezyc on 7 July 2016 at 18:17
@Myrcia: these are just my political views, not abhorrent in any way. You may disagree. There was no hate-speech in my comment at all, I can’t see it, sorry. As far as i know we live in countries where free speech applies, so there is no reason to kick me out of here just because i’ve got right-wing political views. Also, I haven’t done any racist comment in my message, and I’ve got nothing to other races. I think you’re overusing term “racist”. I don’t like LGBT, and it’s not illegal anywhere, many pepole do, in some countries (like Russia) even politics say it’s bad. When I said “there is no racism against minorities” I meant situation in my country of Poland where racism is nonexistent. I’d like to cut the discussion about my views, because it’s not a discussion about it, but about “Verisimiltunde and race, sex, sexuality”.
Comment from Myrcia on 7 July 2016 at 18:28
I will not apologise for confronting racism and homophobia. I don’t direct these comments to you but to the wider community.
We may live in countries with some free speech protections (although the UK and Poland have nothing like the protections of the USA) but this message board has administrators who moderate and decide what is acceptable. I would argue to them that your posts are unacceptable.
Why bother even addressing any of the other points? “In my country of Poland where racism is nonexistent” stands alone as a beautiful tribute to the levels of self-delusion required to hold these beliefs.
Comment from Leowezy on 7 July 2016 at 18:50
For God’s sake (or Goddesses’, whoever); let’s NOT, in ANY way, bring our own ideology into the meta discussion.
Until now, OGF is a community where everyone can work together not because we share the same RW values, but because they don’t matter on here. It should stay that way. That means:
People should not make the mistake and comment on real world issues like trabantemnaksiezyc did. I’m gay, and calling me a “dangerous problem” is off limits. I won’t accept any mentioning of any kind of hate against any type of people on here. I’m also a Cologne resident (New years’s attack) who sometimes volunteers with asylum seekers. I think it’s obvious that any kind of political discussion we’d have would end in a nightmare. Keep your opinion to yourself, as most of the community does either way. That way we can work together on our common passion (creating maps and fictional world) in a “professional” way.
Of course to some degree we’ll always have to reveal some of our own thinking when writing about social issues in OGF; but because of the aforementioned, everyone has to watch out not to say anything that might go against anyone else’s view.
Comment from histor on 7 July 2016 at 19:10
I like this meta-discussions far away from mapping. As we see, only after short time the political correctness and micro-agression is the theme.
In the most countries I have seen race, gender and sexual behavoir is no problem, there are free democratical constitutions with equal rights. That seemed to be the standard in the OGF-world. And if only fewer women have biographies - let it be. Everybody can write some.
Some countries have “indigene”populations may be with wars between them and “colonists” in the past. Is there then a country, where this “indigenes” do not have equal rights meanwhile?
Comment from kingfries on 7 July 2016 at 19:32
I think this is one of the main things we in OGF need to discuss are things like these. The majority of us dont want to hassle with inventing new religions or even races. As for the races, I think on the OGF-earth its the same as on our. I’m right if I assume we all got atleast basic 10th-12th grade school, if not even college education? So at one point the first humans started to develop from apes, these left their area of origins and over the thousands of years adapted to their new environment. I’m not seeing how much different this could be here. For example my country, Pasalia, is supposed to have always been mostly ‘white’, with ‘blacks’ coming in later. The other topic, sexual orientation and discrimination, is that there is still ‘critiscm’ if not hatred in most countries against gay or transpeople. If we want to keep ogf realistic it should be featured here. If we accept that each person is individual that we have to accept that each person has their individual believes and thoughts, including that you can be in favor of, ignore or dislike it. Religions are another thing: Christianity,Judaism and Islam all originate from the middle east, more or less, so… is there an israel in ogf? Was there a jesus that people wrote about in a book? Was their a muhammed who preached to his fellow people? Or Buddism, Hinduism: Do people in ogf believe in many gods at once? This is really important because all cultures in todays world (not counting native people in N. and South america and australia) are shaped by religions, Europe and its ,descendants’ in the americas on oceania are the way they are because for the past couple hundred years people acted the way they did because they feared god and going to hell, this is more or less the same way in the middle east. People thought they had to leave and teach these ‘wild animals’ their way of behaviour and religion. They killed natives, they forced people to convert. They went to africa and split it into parts without respect who existing structures and governed them all the way to the 60s and 70s. The thing that makes OGF so complicated at times is because there are no boundaries like ,,All humans originate from Uletha’’ or ,, In the year 0 Jeschris Sustus, the son of Riama was born in a shed.’’ Until now everyone kind of imagined their own World history.
Talking about IC and OOC, I, personally also tend to be conservative and like trabantemnaksiezyc, I dont want my home country to be ,,intruded’’, to put it like that, by unskilled people who are dependend on welfare BUT…. These are my personal beliefs and in no way justify coming here and openly hating on other people. Like Myrcia said, theres a line between Hate speech and having an opinion and this shouldnt, especially in online communities, be crossed. Critisicing millions of people without anything education or sense of how to behave suddenly coming to ones home is one thing, hating people just because of their color or sexuality is disgusting. To get back to topic after all this, Racism, Sexism and the like are to say… parts of human civilisation and I doubt they will ever disappear. Woah that was a long text…
Comment from Leowezy on 7 July 2016 at 19:35
I’m not sure if you’re being ironic about “liking” this kind of discussion Histor; they have the potential to seriously poison the whole community.
About the biographies; I don’t think Demuth mentioned them to tell us “you better write some more articles about female protagonists”, but instead to prove that in our fictional world just as in the real world, there is a certain degree of gender imbalance. That does not need to imply that that imbalance is intrinsically bad; just that there are fewer female than male leaders, fewer female than male scientists etc. Unequalness (“Ungleichheit” in German has a much more neutral ring to it) and unfairness does not need to be the same, that’s a political opinion anyone can hold and defend for themselves. But I think it should be absolutely undisputed that in the real world as well as in in the fictional OGF universe, there have been very strong gender roles which over the course of the 20th century got softened, but still show measurable effects. As far as I can tell, that’s the point Demuth was trying to make.
The indigene population is something that I wonder about myself; considering the large amount of countries on OGF that are the product of colonisation, I would expect much more wiki articles on the wars or at least civil struggles for equal rights in that regard. But as usual we mostly write about what we are interested in; that might as well be phonology or light rail systems ;)
Comment from Leowezy on 7 July 2016 at 19:49
@kingfries I agree that we definitely need a larger framework for the evolution of humans in OGF. I particularly like your sentence “Until now everyone kind of imagined their own World history”. I think that relates to the whole world-war question as well; we should try to develop the common frame work from top to bottom, that is start with the most fundamental (like from what continent did the humans spread, what ideology was behind the colonisation of huge parts of the world), and I think “singular” events like world wards etc. will come up from there on their own.
On your last paragraph; again, let’s not make comments about current real world issues. Your opinion might seem obvious to you, but I find that with politics people always have the urge to carry on the debate (much like my self). I could comment on your opinion and share with you in what regards mine differs from yours, but we have to break the circle somehow xD If anyone is interested in political debate, we could start a chat room parallel to OGF for that very matter, but I think these diaries should be completely factual and most importantly, OGF-related only.
Comment from Yuanls on 7 July 2016 at 19:53
I’d say that it would be fine to have a country with right-wing views, like Russia or to some extents, more conservative parts of the USA. I don’t think, however, that it is right to go overboard and create a country solely based on your views. If we are to create a country such as Saudi Arabia or Uganda, I guess it should be at least a collaboration or a blue country to avoid hate speech and friction between users.
Although I have not written about this in the wiki, but Glaster has a rather conservative view of LGBT etc rights. Homosexuality is not illegal and is tolerated, but sentiment among the population is still strong. However things are getting better.
This is no way what I believe though, as I am perfectly fine with homosexuality. A few of my friends are gay and bi. I only made Glaster what it is based on what’s logical and believable, not from personal opinion.
As for the racial matter, it is probable that there was some kind of segregation in the colonial era, which may or may not have somehow dragged on until now. I can’t say much on the racial problem, as most have not elaborated on their country’s race or colonial status.
@Myrcia People have different views and opinions on homosexuality. I’m guessing that everyone here knows this, and as a result don’t wish to turn OGF into a political battleground. Saying that ‘I think LGBT etc are a dangerous problem’ sounds fine to me. Just another opinion among many. What’s not ok is to say ‘LGBT people are dangerous, so they must be banned from OGF’ and attacking anyone who opposes them. That would certainly incur some kind of sanction.
Comment from Yuanls on 7 July 2016 at 20:10
Regarding the arising of humans, I think we should roughly base it on our planet (how else could we have evolved?). The OGF equivalent to the Great Rift Valley has yet to be decided, but I think we can place it on any (available) continent. It won’t take long to get from one continent to the other anyway, easier than in the real world, as there is no frozen Bering Straight or indonesian islands to pass through. It would have been easier if there was an ice age, because the sea levels would have been lower. You would barely need to get wet.
In the wider geological timescale, I can help on that. All I need are a list of mountain ranges, rift valleys and volcanic island chains. It might be a bit difficult though, as some verisimilitude mappers have not really thought about geology. To be fair, nor have I really.
Comment from Leowezy on 7 July 2016 at 20:16
I think anyone would agree that any type of political ideology for a country in OGF is acceptable, even very inhuman ones as long as it is clear that the author distances themselves from it. If someone writes about a country that beheads people with red hair I have no issue with that, as long as it’s clear that that is not some secret wish of its creator for the real world.
I think skin colour just is not something many people on here value as important in regards to their fictional country; to be honest, I have yet to decide whether the Kojolese population would be mostly Caucasian or rather Asian, but if there was a completely “new” skin tone for south east Uletha in OGF than I wouldn’t be opposed to that as well. I think people should feel encouraged to mention their countries ethniciti(es) on the wiki if they have a picture in mind.
As I said previously, political opinions should not play a role on OGF. Identifying a sexuality as a “dangerous problem” however is relevant to the platform, since these are intrinsic characteristics human beings have; that does NOT sound fine to me. That extends to all kinds of things, just to name a few: anything relating to gender and sexuality, nationality, skin colour, religion, or even being a refugee or not (how would you feel if let’s say an Iraki living in Germany in an asylum home was to join the community?)
Any opinions on these topics should be kept to oneself, be they liberal or conservative, be they political or not. There’s a difference between openly discussing political opinions one holds and “discussing” each other’s most basic qualities.
Comment from Leowezy on 7 July 2016 at 20:18
I think in regards to where the human race originated, the Admins should set a place if the community doesn’t come up with one. I think the number of possible regions is quite small anyway, since it would have to near the equator and in the “old world”, that is in the area that is currently available for mapping and not the yet untouched continents.
Comment from Myrcia on 7 July 2016 at 20:47
@Yuanis “Saying that ‘I think LGBT etc are a dangerous problem’ sounds fine to me.”
Yes, I expect it does to a straight man. Perhaps it’s not what straight people think that matters but how LGBT people feel about coming into a community where being labelled as ‘dangerous’ due to a part of their identity they can do nothing about ‘sounds fine’.
Comment from dryerlint on 7 July 2016 at 20:55
Personally, I think a good approach would be to choose several real-world “controversial issues” and actually make them controversial in your country.
Don’t just follow your own political views on everything. For example, I’m pretty pro-LGBT as far as things go, but I’ve decided to add a few opposing groups to my nation. It makes things more realistic and politically entertaining. Also, don’t turn your country’s debates into wild “good vs evil” arguments, where it becomes clear which side the world creator prefers. The real world is usually grey, not black and white.
In topics like this, it is worth admitting that most Internet users are generally liberal. (Including myself.) This makes it easy to forget that there are a lot of other political opinions in the real world, and we shouldn’t just ignore them. In OGF, it may seem like all the users support a liberal paradise, but this does not make for a realistic world.
As a general rule of thumb, I believe that if a significant portion of the real world believes in some political opinion, then we should respect that opinion. Making a country where homosexuality is illegal? A significant portion of the real world is exactly like that, so we should accept it, even if we disagree. Making a country where some group of people is murdered and tortured? That’s taking things a bit too far, IMO.
Comment from Myrcia on 7 July 2016 at 20:59
@dryerlint I think it’s integral to the idea of Geofiction that there are countries where homosexuality is illegal. I would even think that a country which commits genocide or civil war would be realistic and acceptable.
There is a huge, gaping great difference between saying that in my country homosexuality is illegal and saying I personally believe homosexuality is illegal.
My problem is with the latter not the former.
Comment from histor on 7 July 2016 at 21:10
The history of the OGF-World is unwritten. We only have fragments in some country-wikis and short timelines in the portal “Help and ressources” under “Discussions”. For me personally I do not miss such history, if the wiki-story of each country is consistent and if neighbours communicate. But if somebody will do this work - good luck!
If you have an “official” OGF-history, logically you are less free with your country. On the other hand the cooperation with others makes a lot of the fascination of OGF. Not easy.
I think, most of all users here are male - homo or hetero. So it is clear, that this set the focus. I never take care, what sex or gender or whatever an other user is. This should be private. I think, for good mapping and wiki-articles this is not relevant. And too not relevant is, what somebody thinks about one of the 54 facebook-genders.
You can map and describe a wide range of undemocratic countries. The OGF-world can have all problems of the real world - but I think, most of us draw and describe a more perfect world in their countries.
But with commentaires about your inner opinion please be carefull. Not all, what is not illegal is friendly.
Comment from Leowezy on 7 July 2016 at 21:20
I just found this map on the talk page of Luciano… it’s from 2014. Perhaps it’s quite telling and supportive to the point Histor is making, that the struggle for a “unified” history of the OGF world apparently is going on for years ;D Maybe we just have to accept that OGF can never be a concise whole, but will always be a puzzle with many broken and missing pieces where every user can only try to make their piece fit with their neighbours… I know that imagery goes against some of the things I’ve previously stated, and I still think we should try to find a place for the birth of the human race and at last vaguely sketch out how the languages got were they are now, but that’s already a very, very high aim.
Comment from kingfries on 7 July 2016 at 21:27
But… if we were to be really realistic we wouldnt just have genocides but then there would be have to be something like Auschwitz too. I’m not sure someone wants to volunteer in having that in his or her country….
Comment from Myrcia on 7 July 2016 at 21:29
@kingfries Well there is talk of a World War. I think it’s a pretty damning statement on the human race to say there has to be an Auschwitz. I’m not saying it’s wrong, just depressing!
Comment from Leowezy on 7 July 2016 at 21:32
I think that’s what Histor ment with “most of us draw and describe a more perfect world in their countries.” I think we should let everyone decide for themselves what to put into their country’s history or present. If we ever “need” an Auschwitz in present OGF (I hope I’ll never be quoted on this out of context…) for a collaboratively designed story line, we could still come back to Yuanls proposal to do so in a collaborative or blue territory (something like a present day North Korea).
Comment from kingfries on 7 July 2016 at 21:35
Yeah sadly we humans are quite messed up. Thats what this thread is all about, that if there are countries with barely any violence then its only logical there have be bad countries too. And something like this should be in a blue country, so no one has to deal with such a horror.
Comment from Demuth on 8 July 2016 at 13:58
Okay, I started this thread, here’s my three cents after all the discussion.
It seems to me that the consensus is: racism, sexism, homophobia all exist in OGF with some kind of (mostly undetermined) historical context behind them, following the rules we’ve set up for ourselves. This is clarity, and clarity is good! I think it’s also clear that anyone who is interested should definitely be writing wiki pages on these and other human rights issues, in the form of organizations, politics, politicians/activists or other people, histories etc. that focus on these issues. All in the fictional context of OGF, where the good and the bad of the real world are valid, bad governments and all.
And obviously, the result of this discussion has gone one step further into the long-standing issues around having a world where basically only landmass is fixed, a global climate, topography and history aren’t pre-set. Which @Ūdilugbulgidħū has started here. We definitely don’t have a good track record with this, and it’s going to require a lot of work so… I wish us luck!
Just to clarify a few things:
@Leowezy had it right in my point about sexism… I wasn’t trying to say it was good or bad, I was just pointing out that it already exists just by looking at the numbers. So, if we want to look at human rights issues more in the wiki, this is one clear area where it would make sense to address it with, say, a standing committee in the AN on the status and rights of women, for instance.
And since appropriate interactions also came up in this discussion, and it is a pertinent part of that discussion, I want to say that I’m gay as well. I realize it was probably a bit of a poorly thought-out rhetorical flourish, and I also grant some leeway when people are communicating in a language that’s not their mother tongue, but replace “I actually think LGBT and transsex are a dangerous problem” with “I actually think African-Americans/Jews/North Africans/Indians/Roma/Jehovah’s Witnesses are a dangerous problem” and I think you see how it sounds. Like @Myrcia, I can’t let this pass without stating that I object and to the same things. But I feel confident that we’ve clarified that this is not how we want to interact here, and I’m happy to move on.
Comment from UnSoiDisantOracle on 8 July 2016 at 16:25
Hello all.
I think that we should not feel too constrained by the real world narrative in some places, up to and including race.
In other words and if not too late to say so, we are not obliged to have races in OGF. It is a slippery slope to say that if there are humans, they have had to have originated in one place, and had to have changed color, and have to engage in modern-day racism. I think with our collective, creative minds we can feel free to write a different story at each step in that process.
For Ataraxia, I have intentionally gone no further than Ataraxian and non-Ataraxian origin, sometimes referring to origins by country or linguistic differences. But I do not intend to invoke race in any way, shape or form in Ataraxia, census or otherwise. (Maybe the French influence can be felt here too).
I felt a bit distressed when some users created as some of their first wiki articles, race-based crime and other stories, but that’s just me. I would rather explore other ways to create new civilizations (even though Ataraxia is no utopia, with lèse-majesté laws and less-than-full-suffrage).
Comment from Luciano on 9 July 2016 at 22:51
I wanted to add something more positive to this conversation, and in contrast to my earlier somewhat eccentric comment that was mostly expressing frustration with verisimilitude in general.
When I first came to OGF, Demuth’s work on Wiwaxia, in the wiki, was quite inspiring. With the Wiwaxian matriarchy, he was creating a plausible but clearly “unreal” alternative reality. It managed to be both verisimilitudinous and yet un-earthlike. What I liked about it was its “understatedness” - no where did he announce “Here is an alternate reality.” It was just presented as the reality of his country, and one had to read between the lines to realize how different it was.
The Ardisphere is “less different” than Wiwaxia - but I was inspired by Demuth to use that same “just make it.” His work also inspired me to pay attention to the gender balance of my “characters” - though I haven’t done perfectly.
How is this relevant to questions of sexuality and race and ethnicity? Well… I think Demuth’s first approach was perhaps a better one than this current one (although I am just as guilty of wanting to “talk to death” just about any topic). That first approach was to just sit down and create an alternative vision. In exploring Wiwaxia, one’s mind is opened to new possibilities in a way that sitting down and saying “let’s discuss gender equity in OGF” fails.
So I think the best approach we can have is to simply focus on creating some of these alternative views. Our alternative reality can retain verisimilitude while not being at all “real.” They can break with our world’s rules and strictures in all kinds of interesting ways, and allow us to experiment with alternate configurations for human society. Thus Demuth’s Wiwaxian matriarchy, or dono87’s Ataraxian “raceless” society, or Udi’s compelling though somewhat mysterious alternative economic systems, or Ardisphere’s extreme multilingual multiculturalism (tolerance on steroids?!).
In light of this, and somewhat inspired by this conversation and by my dissatisfaction with my current incarnation of Mahhal, I want to make that country “stranger.” I’ll give a preview of where I intend to go - and this is a bit of a retcon vis-a-vis some of what I’ve already written, but might be closer to the pre-OGF version of the country.
Mahhal is, I think, radically “gender blind” - meaning there are deep-seated social rules against even acknowledging gender in the public sphere. This might lead to interesting new ways to conceptualize institutions like marriage (imagine a tradition of weddings where the “groom” and “bride” must look exactly the same and perform identical, mirrored roles - perhaps they wear masks!) , and it might mean that despite being a deeply conservative society in some respects, Mahhal might in fact have long-standing toleration of LGBTQ issues, not through explicit recognition but rather through extreme “gender blindness.” What if, in pre-modern historical documents, it is literally impossible to know the gender of the person mentioned? Was that ancient “king” / “warrior” / “priestess” / “consort” / “prophet” male or female? Who knows. “King,” “warrior,” “priestess,” “consort,” and “prophet” are jobs, not genders. Likewise down the line.
Happy mapping.
Comment from Ūdilugbulgidħū on 10 July 2016 at 00:22
Altogether, great idea. Not too much talk at all - love to see more ‘believable strangeness’! Btw there is no ‘gender’ in Alårön Pœzuk language of Kėzėpölān either - so that definitely might make more sense if you apply this gender blindness to Mahhal. And perhaps this means Mahhal might enter the InterCup football tournament after all? Eligibility requirements need revised…
Comment from isleño on 10 July 2016 at 02:47
I’m glad you brought up these issues, Demuth. In my mind, problems like racism, sexism and homophobia are so intertwined with humanity that I almost always include them in my fictional countries. To me, a country without any of these problems would feel “flat” and unrealistic, and I’m more inspired by imagining how a country struggles with these types of challenges, than imagining a utopia where everything is all nicely wrapped up.
But at the end of the day, I think you’re right that no consensus is really necessary. Some countries will have more turmoil in these areas than others, and that’s fine.
I will admit that I tend to be pretty mundane in the racism/sexism/homophobia/etc I imagine, and there’s certainly a lot of room for people to get creative and imagine different social problems that may not even have an equivalent on earth — a country where short people dominate positions of power, or a country where people of a certain eye color face discrimination, or… I’m sure people can be more creative than I am, haha. I hope this discussion inspires lots of new and interesting things in the OGF world.
Comment from Demuth on 11 July 2016 at 20:41
@Luciano It makes me happy that my wiki writing helped inspire you in doing yours (and that it made you think about gender issues in your own countries on OGF). I didn’t exactly do it to make other people think, I did it more as a reaction to what I saw (and to be honest, a lot of focus on how to promote gender equality at that time at my job which made me particularly aware of the issue).
And, I actually completely agree with you that actually the best way to do things is just charge ahead and do them! I think it’s great that people are attempting again to create a cohesive back story for OGF but I personally have less of a problem than many apparently do with its incohesiveness and inconsistencies. These things will always be a part of OGF I think, and part of its charm. And a cause of frustration. But I think it adds an element of chance and takes things in unexpected directions.
Anyway, charging ahead and doing things is what I’m going to do I guess.
Comment from BMSOUZA on 13 July 2016 at 00:08
Is too late to me saying something??? hehehe
Well, about sexism, I can agree (but I dont see it as a problem) there are few female (or trans-gender) people and wiki articles in OGF. Personally, I like very much that singer who Paxtar created, and my intention is creating a “similar” wiki article to a female singer from some of my countries.
But, like Histor, I dont care if the other users in OGF are male, female or transex, because my interest in OGF is only about… geofiction, hehehe. Of course I would like very much to meet the other users (male, female, whathever??), I have sympathy to everybody in OGF, hehehe.
About races, once I said bad words to @Kingfries because I understood some racist thoughts in Pasalia wiki article, but I am so sorry because that - few hours after, I understood it was a kind of discussion, not (his/her) personal idea. Well, my future wife is (what is the correct-not-racist word in english?????) ebony girl (maybe a singer in OGF, hehehe), and, looking inside OGF, I see only Lallemand as a country populated by black people (would be my girl from Lallemand??? hahaha). I think should there are more “black countries” in OGF. Still about races, in OGF we have the goytakano-suvumese conflict. Are different ethnicities and I think when Isleño finish the rules of Suvuma, we can discuss more and better about ethnic problems (and, why not? bring these problems to other countries)…
And, about religions, I dont think we “need” a Israel, a Mecca, a Rome, etc inside OGF. I look with good eyes if some countries got a common history to religions but I dont see it as a rule. Example: my country Cariocas is more christian (45% evangelical and 45% catholic) but I dont think is necessary mention about catholic/ortholic missionaries from Darcodia or Pretany or wherever this religion came, hehehe
Comment from Ernestpkirby on 17 July 2016 at 05:52
I suppose Freedemia was sort of an odd case when it comes to these things.
Race- As for racism, I kinda tried to avoid it by basically making the country “mixed beyond distinction”. I guess that was sort of my way of saying racism is minimal, and considering the country’s Equatorial position I imagine everyone sort of just looking Hispanic-ish. So I guess that’s a neutral in a good way. Perhaps not realistic, though.
LGBT- I guess it was more that the LGBT population within the country of Freedemia is so small that it never really needed to be addressed legally, not so much a “for” or “against”, if you know what I mean. Also a neutral.
Gender Equality- This is one of the only major topics being discussed where Freedemia takes a very strong stance and leadership position. Our first VP was a woman, females are in just as many if not more leadership positions as men and have been since the beginning, there’s paid parental leave, equal pay, equality in alimony and custody situations, public breastfeeding, etc. Women often play along men in sports. We even are proud to be a world leader in barechested equality.
I personally preferred to avoid the “real world” controversial issues to prevent huge rifts or anger, and focused on issues that would have been big to Freedemia itself, like the restroom shortage, the nudism debate, and the Graham City Crisis (which might be considered an income inequality issue?).
This being said, it has seemed to work out well for me to create “controversial issues” that were not closely linked to real world controversial topics. It makes for interesting history, and is less likely to offend anyone on either side. I’d recommend it. Also, with racism a more realistic solution than what I did seems to be the whole country vs country thing in contrast to races, which seems to be more common in OGF anyway.