OpenGeofiction
After @eklas ‘ diary entry, i created a page titled “Slevic” for all the Slevic languages to put on as a family. There is just one problem. The name Syrillangan (i am repeating eklas’ words) does not sound normal to the Syrillangan person. However, the other names propsed sound too similar to “Slavs” or “Slavic”.
There is a problem in this because we need to come up with a name that makes sense, isnt biased on Russian spelling, and sounds normal to the Syrillangan person.
Please i would just like to say:
There are multiple linguistic, cultural, religious and mentality differences between West and East Slavs, please do NEVER CATEGORIZE US AS ONE BIG GROUP OF THE SAME PEOPLE. It annoys the hell out of me, and i wanted to emphasize that we are not the same as the Russians. We have different ways of doing things. Including spelling.
Here we can discuss this issue:
Discussion
Comment from trabantemnaksiezyc on 10 February 2017 at 16:53
Well, I don’t think that Slevic is too similar to the original. There are many OGF names comparable with the IRL ones - English/Ingerish, French/Franquese et cetera.
Comment from eklas on 10 February 2017 at 17:43
My original entry can be found here.
According to Wikipedia (en), the origin of ‘Slavic’ lies in ‘slovo’ (word), ‘sláva’ (fame) and ‘sluch’ (hearing), together meaning ‘speaking the same language.’ However, pages in other languages say it’s debatable. The Czech one even says such origin is unlikely if not impossible, and suggests it comes from a river (what?).
Also the alphabet’s name still remains Syrillangan right? Stjur mentioned it under the original post and I don’t see a reason to change it.
I’m still rooting for Levic though- I also have to agree with Stjur here, despite the pronunciation difference Slevic still sounds like the original a lot. Whatever the majority of people want though.
Comment from Pawl on 10 February 2017 at 17:47
I think Slevic sounds fine too … evoking the RW analogy without being quite the same word. Quite a few of my placenames are single-letter-changed RW names, sometimes even pronounced the same (e.g. RW River Clyst > OGF River Clist).
Being married to a South Slav, I couldn’t possibly comment on the East Slav / West Slav question :)
Comment from histor on 10 February 2017 at 17:51
O.k. - in the real world we have a slavic language group - divited commonly in west-sl., south-sl. and east-sl. and written in latin or cyrillic as historic evulution. On the OGF-world this can be regulated other and I think, to do this is the work of people, which in real life speaking slavic in wide sense. The next is to represent the baltic languages, which are not slavic.
“There are multiple linguistic, cultural, religious and mentality differences between West and East Slavs” - may be, may be and do not forget the southern tribes in “Yugo”-Slavia. But this differences must not be important in the OGF-world. So the german-language group too has some mental differences between German, Britons and Skandinavians - who will care?
Comment from histor on 10 February 2017 at 17:54
Is the orign of “slavic” not from slava = “famous”. So me was learned as I worked some years in Prague / Tschoslowakia.
Comment from stjur on 10 February 2017 at 19:04
@eklas Yes, I would like the Cyrillic (Russian) Alphabet to stick to the current name of “Syrillangan”.
Comment from Litvania on 10 February 2017 at 19:40
@stjur I am not talking about the alphabet, but the name of the language family.
Comment from Nikolia on 10 February 2017 at 19:43
I’m just amazed by a fact that a Slav doesn’t know groups of his own ethnic group. Let’s not forget that common westener thinking that only Russians use Cyrillic…are you even seriously a Slav or you are a wannabe Slav?
Comment from eklas on 10 February 2017 at 20:12
Guys, can we please talk about the issue and come up with constructive feedback instead of accusing each other of not being Slavic enough? Thanks.
Comment from ante44 on 10 February 2017 at 20:26
As a native speaker of Slavic language (Croatian, South Slavic language), I can say that Slevic sounds much better Syrillangan to me. I can’t even pronounce it easily.
Comment from ante44 on 10 February 2017 at 20:27
*better than Syrillangan
Comment from Litvania on 10 February 2017 at 20:38
@Nikolia I Am a Pole and I know that Serbs, Russians, Ukrainians, Bulgarians etc use the Cyrillic alphabet with minor changes. I do agree with @eklas. Please let’s come up with a solution and not continuous talk about how the OGF world is unoriginal, repetitive etc…
The purpose of this entry is to come up with a solution to a problem. Not to create a fight.
Comment from Luciano on 10 February 2017 at 21:37
In our OGF world, there is a situation which might be called “first comer”.
The first person to name something important rather gets the privilege of doing so. Thus, the user Andy created the name “Ingerland” 3 or so years ago. Everyone since is more or less stuck with this name and its derivatives (Ingerish, etc.). We must adapt to it, because lucky Andy got to name it, because he arrived first. Personally, I dislike that particular name, but, sadly, that’s not a legitimate position from which to argue that it should be changed.
I perhaps got lucky in that I got to name the OGF equivalent of Spanish, Castellán. Perhaps other users don’t like this name. However, for the most part people have accepted it and, remarkably, someone (Kalh79), even took on the task of creating the home country, consulting with me for advice about the name.
I would propose that in the case of the OGF Slavic, the “first comer” principle should apply. Just as many Koreans object to the fact that all the world calls their country “Korea” (it’s not what they call themselves, after all, at least since around 1300 AD), nevertheless they “deal with it” and even learn to take pride in it. Thus even if you don’t like the proposed name for OGF Slavic, the “first comer” retains the privilege of naming.
Comment from eklas on 10 February 2017 at 21:58
Wow, I really disagree with that.
Just because someone else came up with the name doesn’t mean it can’t be changed, especially when it’s unfitting like in this case.
Comment from Litvania on 10 February 2017 at 22:33
@Luciano @eklas @Nikolia @ante44 @trabantemnaksiezyc
Ok, i see this is not working. I have an alternative solution. Listen:
Suria is (supposedly) the origin land of all “Syrillangan” races in the OGF world. They migrated and seperated at some point, leaving them with a similar culture and language. One of these groups is the Drabantians. They migrated North, from somewhere near Bardak, Suria, and end up in Escadia, eventually in present day Drabantia. They are automatically seperated from the Surian culture and language because of the Escadians. The Drabantians abondon the Cyrillic alphabet, and develop their language using a Latin alphabet, which they picked up from the Escadians.
This language starts to slowly become really different from Surian. Its orthography, grammar etc… changes. It starts to form a subgroup of the existing family of Syrillangan.
From there, a further migration northwest by the Litvanians is made, who encounter the Egailians and Fresslandians on the way, which changes their language from Drabantian (removal of ĺ, ř, ŕ). They are now all part of the Litvadrabantian language subfamily,
This is a topic for further discussion, not a final draft
What im to say now, is that we are different from the Surians linguistically because of geographical isolation, but are still part of the “first-comer” Syrillangan language family, because of our Surian heritage and ancestry.
Comment from stjur on 10 February 2017 at 22:40
And which language family will the Shilesian language, for instance, be part of? I think this will end up in a even bigger chaos.
Comment from Luciano on 10 February 2017 at 22:52
A short clarification: my point about “first comer” is that the user who made the term “Syrillangan” is its “owner” and deserves to be consulted. I don’t actually know who made this term “Syrillangan”. To find out, some research would have to be done using the “history” function on the wiki.
Also (just as with the term “Ingerish”), to be very clear: personally, I dislike “Syrillangan”, and I find it linguistically implausible. That said, again, it is disrepectful to “first comer” to go deciding to reject the term without consulting with the term’s creator.
Comment from trabantemnaksiezyc on 11 February 2017 at 00:41
@Litvania: Making a history for migrations of pepole and languages is impossible in OGF. And ridiculous as well, especially for Syrillangan/Slevic languages which are all spread out across the Uletha. Majority of Syrillangan/Slevic countries uses the “regular” script, so a country that uses cyrillic alphabet wouldn’t be a source to them. I am also bothered by your edit on the OGF:Language families page, in description of which you have stated that original Silesian is not a language but a dialect. I assure you that Silesian is a language, it has an ISO-639.3 code (szl), and all Wikipedia articles (both Polish and English) about it are constantly vandalised. It is a language, although it is highly disputed (mainly because of politics and literally every Polish gov’t having problems acknowledging the Silesians and our difference from Poles).
Comment from Luciano on 11 February 2017 at 01:03
Let’s try to keep real world politics out of OGF.
Please also bear in mind, a writing system (eg Cyrillic vs Latin) has no relation to a language’s (putative) connection to other languages and certainly does not have bearing on historical questions of origin. Although Germanic languages were first written in Runic, none are today. Does that invalidate that their older forms used Runic?
LINGUISTICS 101: writing systems are not languages.
Comment from eklas on 11 February 2017 at 07:45
a) So I checked the wiki and @histor appears to be the author of the word.
b) @trabantemetc, it’s true that S- (what word do I use?) countries are spread all across Uletha- but at least some are close to each other (Drab, Litv, Suria, Galicia I guess.) It’s reasonable to create a history for them.
I am sorry that Shilesia is left out thousands of kilometers away surrounded by Gaermanics, but it’s not my fault. When deciding for a new territory, you should generally look around and see where similar countries are first.
Comment from Litvania on 11 February 2017 at 08:34
I agree with @eklas. By the way, Shilsian is more similar to the Gaermanics than the Syrillangans. It uses ‘w’ instead of a v etc… It makes more sense for you to be there and be a subgroup of he Syrillangans that migrated far away.
Comment from histor on 11 February 2017 at 09:18
“Comment from eklas on 11 Februar 2017 at 07:45 = a) So I checked the wiki and @histor appears to be the author of the word.”
What do you mean? Autor of which word I am?
Comment from eklas on 11 February 2017 at 09:35
@histor: Oh no, I’m sorry. I checked the ‘List of language groups’ page you created in May 2015 and automatically assumed you’re the author of the word Syrillangan. But ‘OGF:Language groups’ lists the word as soon as Oct 2014 in an edit by user Indyroads. My bad.
Comment from trabantemnaksiezyc on 11 February 2017 at 11:28
@Litvanka: Shilesian uses W instead of V because it evolved from (OGF equivalent of) Polish, Gaermanic languages use W as Ł, so It’s not similar at all. It is a mix of one Slevic* and one Gaerman language.
@Eklas: Ventria is not far away. If I really wanted I could come up with a history, but how did Ventrians (and Shilesians) get there in the first place? They ARE far away from other Slevics. Also, don’t forget other Slevic countries, such as Slavonians. I’d rather set this as the origin of Slevic populations, which migrated east. When I placed Shilesia here I was rather concerned with it being in Western Uletha as it is the equivalent of Europe.
Comment from eklas on 11 February 2017 at 13:57
Slavonia is a special case itself- it’s a completely artifical country composed of many S.- languages. Plus it’s even more isolated than the Shilesia-Ventria area. I still think it makes the most sense for Suria to be the location of origin, since it’s somewhere in the middle between all the S- countries.
Comment from Ūdilugbulgidħū on 12 February 2017 at 17:15
“Syrillangan” appears to be the ‘Ingerish’ name for this language group.
I’ve therefore created the “Syrillangan” wiki page.
Unlike in the real world, in OGF I don’t think these languages can be divided geographically, i.e. by the cardinal direction. The individual languages could be given ingerish names based on countries they are spoken in. I don’t know how linguistically accepted this chart is, but it could reflect the relationships between these languages in OGF.
The ‘syrillangan’ family could of course have a different name in other languages - for example, in different languages within the family.
Comment from isleño on 12 February 2017 at 20:59
As I understand Luciano’s point about “first comer” — it does not mean the name cannot be changed, only that the originator of the term should be consulted. I do think that if a name (even an ‘Ingerish’ name) sounds “wrong” to the majority of native speakers, they should have a right to change it. Maybe they can work that out in the wiki:
http://wiki.opengeofiction.net/wiki/index.php/Talk:Syrillangan