Moving Karolia

Posted by Sarepava on 13 September 2015 in English (English).

Dear users,

In the last few days myself and an admin have been making preliminary discussions about the possibility of moving Karolia (and Meridonia) from its current location in Archanta to UL077. All the interested parties have been contacted and already seen the rationale for this, but now is the time to present the main reasons to the wider community:

Karolia has a temperate climate that is much better suited to the latitude of mid-Uletha than the equatorial location it currently occupies. Karolia and Meridonia have ‘European’ cultures, cities, genealogical characteristics and languages that cannot easily be explained in the present location. Karolia is a modern industrial power that is better suited to being around other similar countries and a temperate landscape than the unoccupied desert of Archanta.

The proposal I am advancing can be viewed here and essentially involves rotating the country and rearranging some of the northern and eastern areas to fit the border, as well as creating two gulfs to preserve the coastline. These also provide some realism for the isolate main language and other quirks (broad-gauge railways and secularism). A second option was considered but as well as advantages this carries some major problems, particularly having to lose half the coastline and cede territory from another country. Option 1 makes the most topological, historical and political logic. I hope to retain the connection with the Ardisphere through colonial history.

In addition, I am going to propose some historical background to fit in with neighbouring countries. The pre-Karolian people migrated south in late prehistory, bringing with them a proto-langauge which also forms the origin of that of Estensia (both being Finno-Ugric). The area was then part of a suggested large Latin empire based around Darcodia, which collapsed around 400-500AD. The country was then relatively isolated by sea and mountains and the ‘barbarians’ living there established a Karolian culture which retained some of the Romantish language in parts. It became a series of kingdoms and subsequently a minor colonial power and then industrial country through successive centuries.

We welcome your comments and input into this process.

Comment from Egen on 14 September 2015 at 02:53

A huge project!

I moved Paxtar by copying all the ways in one area to a new JOSM layer, moved it to the new location, uploaded the what I had copied, and then went back and deleted the nodes from the original layer, and then loaded those changes. Wanted to make sure I still had everything in one location or another in case of a problem. The downside of doing it in parts is that I am still working on getting things corrected as I spot problems, and find duplicate stretches of roads, etc.

If you haven’t already seen it, under Advanced configuration (or advanced tab) in JOSM, in the upload window, there’s an option to upload data in chunks. I had better results using that compared to loading my entire change set in one request, which resulted in time-outs with the server. I used 500 for my chunk size without many problems. When it did time-out, I didn’t have to reload the entire change set, just what was in the current chunk (and after).

Best of luck on the move! I look forward to seeing you set up in your new neighborhood.

Comment from oscar2002 on 14 September 2015 at 07:14

Yo tambien quería mover mi territorio (hacia hotro mucho mas pequeño,para poder editarlo mejor y mas facilmente) pero al final opté por dividirlo, que requería mucho menos trabajo.De igual manera te deseo mucha suerte con el cambio de pais.

I also wanted to move my country (to a much smaller, for editing better and more easily) but finally opted to divide, requiring much less desire trabajo.De same way very lucky with the change of country.

Comment from Sarepava on 14 September 2015 at 10:34

Luckily most of my work is in areas no more than ten miles in any direction, with the exception of motorways and the coastline. Some parts need to be moved away from the original location anyway.

Admins, can I formally request ownership of UL077 and begin the move?

Comment from Ernestpkirby on 14 September 2015 at 13:30

:) Awesome! Please if you can just let me know when you do exactly where you move it so I can adjust my flights through FreedemiAir.

Comment from Sarepava on 14 September 2015 at 22:24

I will need some help from the admins on the actual process of moving the objects. Have tried copying download to a blank layer and then copying this to another downloaded area at the target location in JOSM but it won’t work.

Comment from Luciano on 15 September 2015 at 00:19

The way I have moved large areas before in JOSM is to first divide the area into some appropriately sized sub-parts (snipping ways like long railways, coastal segments or motorways) then selecting the part to be moved, doing a simple Ctrl-C (copy) and then Ctrl-V (paste) at the new location, with subsequent re-scaling (remember, you’re changing latitude!) and rotation as necessary (in JOSM you can use Ctrl-Shift rotate a selection, Ctrl-Alt to rescale it).

I think the first step is to sketch out your new coastline in the new area. These can just be simple, almost-straight ways but can serve as a guideline for cut-and-paste of the different cities with their correct orientation.

Once this is done, you can message me and I will make a move of a sample location.

If you continue encountering difficulties, and are willing to wait a few days for when I have more free time, then once you’ve sketched in the coastline in the new area, I will take on moving a “sample area” with some screenshots, and try to post a kind of “move-your-country” tutorial. Paxtar might be even better qualified than I am to do this, too.

Comment from Egen on 15 September 2015 at 02:47

I work with everything in on JOSM layer. When I was ready to move, I created a second layer in JOSM where I downloaded the boundaries of the new territory so I knew where I was placing things.

For the transfer, in the source layer, I selected fairly large groups of ways, and all the nodes connected to them, using Shift-Option (I believe Shift-Alt on PC). The largest groups contained a city and the surrounding area, including the coastline. The target layer was then selected and the nodes pasted there.

With everything still selected after the paste, I positioned and rotated the entire group in to place. Afterwards, I snipped out parts of the coastline that extended beyond the area I was editing, and spliced the remaining coastline to the pre-existing coastline from the new territory. Then the updates were loaded in chunks of 500.

Highways, etc., were reconnected at the very end of the process since I was moving things around a bit.

When first copying a large number of nodes, it seemed that JOSM had locked up. It just took a while. Same delay when pasting to the new layer. Later, selecting and deleting the nodes at the old location also took a while, as did uploading the changes. I think it took me about a week to move everything, and more time after trying to get things reconnected.

If I can help, or could provide information that might help, please let me know.

Comment from Sarepava on 17 September 2015 at 22:59

Yes, any help would be appreciated. I’ve tried to make some headway with sketching out the new coastline.

Comment from Luciano on 19 September 2015 at 00:03

I have quite a bit of free time this weekend, if you want me to help in some way with your big move. Just let me know either posting here or with a message.

Happy mapping and moving!

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