Nerschach, a capital's name? - Or: The problem of naming large cities
Posted by joschi81 on 7 January 2017 in English.This diary entry by tule00 (@tule00: Thank you!) led to my detailed reflection of how to find good names for large cities in Kalmish (= German) language.
The most dificult thing is always to find out what names “sound” like names for large cities in a specific language. For example “Hamburg” is Germany’s second largest city, but “-burg” suffix can be found in village, town, and (large) city names. So, with “-burg” names you’re on a quite safe side when naming large cities or small towns in “Kalmish” (German) language. But what about “-dorf”? It means “village”. So, it is used for villages and small towns only. With (at least) one exception: “Düsseldorf”. Everyone in Germany has a large city in mind (capital city of North Rine-Westfalia) when hearing this name, although if you look closely, it is the name for a village. :) What about “Berlin”? In fact, the name of Germany’s largest city, but there are countless smallest villages in Germany with “-in” suffix. Same with “München” (=Munich”), Germany’s third largest city.
In Kalm I used some suffixes from the real German language when naming large cities (e.g. Vennburg, Kemburg, Forberg). Then I invented some special Kalmish suffixes like “-rott” (Tarott, Bilrott) or “-ent” (Orlent, Korlent), which in my point of view sound like large cities.
My (the Kalmish) capital’s name - Nerschach - sounds like the name of a large city to me, as I’m used to this name. However, a good friend of mine heard this name for the first time and said that for him it really does not sound like the name for a large city. This lead to my research of names with this suffix in German place names. Although “-ach” suffix is very common in the southern half of Germany and in many cases derives from names of small rivers or streams, “-schach” suffix isn’t very common. Especially the case of “sch” belonging to the suffix (which often is not the case like in “Eschach”, for example) is very uncommon. My friend had Rorschach in mind when hearing the name “Nerschach”, indeed, a small town with about 10,000 inhabitants next to Lake Constance in Switzerland. I assume that here, the full suffix is “-schach”, as the original Mediaval name was “Rorscahun” (but I’m not 100% sure). I like the name “Nerschach” and of course I will stick to it, but I have to develop the history of the name.
It is clear that in Rorschach, like in Andernach, one of the larger German places with “-ach” suffix, the name does not come from a river or a stream. So I have to decide: Do I want the name Nerschach to come from the small river crossing the city or is it nicer to have another history? What do you think?
One other thing: For me it is always a funny experiment to translate names of large cities in other countries to German and see if it still sounds like a large city - or like the name for a city at all. “Los Angeles” -> “Die Engel”, is this really a city’s name? :) “San Francisco” -> “Sankt Franziskus”, sounds more like a small village in the Bavarian Alps. “Salt Lake City” -> “Salzseestadt”, not very creative, but we have at least one town with the same level of creativity in Germany (“Eisenhüttenstadt” -> “Iron Works City”). “Rio de Janeiro” -> “Januarfluss”, also quite funny for a large city. “Buenos Aires” -> “Gute Lüfte”, funny, and certainly not true for many places in Argentina’s capital. “New York” -> “Neu-Jork”, sounds like a new extension of the small town of Jork west of Hamburg, cultural center within “Altes Land” apple and cherry orchard area. :) And so on. Of course, it is a bit mean to compare our European old names (which often are in fact quite uncreative when you look at the origin) to names in the “New World”, where the uncreative origin is still visible. On the other hand: From a certain perspective, it is very creative to name cities “Los Angeles” or “Buenos Aires” etc.
My conclusion is: In many cases, we have the feeling that a name is suitable for a large city only because we have learned at some moment that there is a large city with this name. (And I “learned” that there are large cities called “Tarott”, “Orlent” … and “Nerschach”.)
Happy mapping!
joschi81
Discussion
Comment from tule00 on 7 January 2017 at 13:55
You’re welcome, and your thinking is very interesting and useful too. My city names are mostly not that creative, but I think it fits in with Reeland being a former colony.
Comment from Luciano on 7 January 2017 at 14:37
I think you worry too much.
We all have strange attachments and strong feelings for the names we’ve created for our imaginary cities. Objectively, Villa Constitución is a rather boring and generic, and anyway it doesn’t seem properly Spanish - it presupposes a strong “Frenchifying influence” on the Ardispherian language, I guess. But I’m deeply attached to the name, now. Anyway, if you like your name, you should keep it, and not worry about it - we can always create a story to explain why a name is such as it is. I rather like your city names, anyway.
Happy mapping.
Comment from joschi81 on 7 January 2017 at 15:04
@Luciano: It’s not that I worry. :) The diary entry’s title is somehow misleadung here. It’s just that I wanted to reflect on how we get used to names of large cities. It would never come to my mind that I could change the Kamlish capital’s name. Even with the name of Pern I’m quite satisfied now (which was not the case when I wrote this diary entry).
I have always liked the name of the Ardispherian capital, by the way. Simple, but with an inspirung “special touch”. :)
Comment from histor on 7 January 2017 at 15:18
O.k. - the short form “Los Angeles” has few flair, but “(El Pueblo de la) Reina de Los Ángeles” sounds much better.
If a town is founded and named, nobody can know, how great this town will be in centuries. And if this town grows - why change the name? So Hamburg / Germany only means “Wood castle”. You can say, that is a silly name for a town with 1.8 million peoples.
Indeed some part of names sounds good for small or greater towns as …burg (… castle), …au (… river) or ..furt (…ford). At other endings you think, that is a small town only like …stedt (…place) or …dorf (…village). But no rule without beraking the rule. I think, in each language the names leads to different associatons about the importance of a town - may this association be realistic or not.
So seen you can give a town a name independent from the question, if the town now is small, of middle size or a big metropole. What is with “Lübeck”/Germany with 250.000 inhabitants and the slavic meaning of the name only is “the lovely”?
As the new land was taken over there are needed a lot of new names. So we have too much of “Santa Cruz” or “Santa Fe” and other San and Santas.
Comment from kingfries on 7 January 2017 at 15:23
Hm not quite sure about that, But Nerschach really sounds like some village in the southern half of germany. We are not used to these names simply because they are fictional. Names like ,Wuppertal’(Wupper Valley), arent creative either. Its hard to come up with original names in OGF due to that we have to come up with ideas behind the name by ourself. Example in RL: ,Bochum’ where I’m from got its name from medieval times and meant ,Places where Beech trees are’. Or in OGF I came up with Windigio which has a ,native inhabitants sound’ to it. But I also have really boring names like Futuria City, Metroville (can it get any more generic than that?), Seymour…. Its hard… Enjoy your weekend folks
Comment from isleño on 7 January 2017 at 17:07
The question of “what names sound like” is a tricky one because the answers will be so different for people of different backgrounds.
To me (an American without much experience in Germany), ‘Nerschach’ doesn’t present any problem at all. But some of the original OGF names seemed really ungeographic when I first saw them, and it took a very long time for me to get used to them. I shudder to think what my own place names may sound like to others.
It is also scary to think what levels of silliness we are capable of getting used to. For example we have a real country called ‘Turkey’ and everyone is used to it, but if a new user named their territory ‘Chicken’ I would be reminding them of the rule against joke countries and asking them to please find a different name.
Comment from joschi81 on 7 January 2017 at 17:44
@isleño: Turkey - good point. :) It is always kind of funny when translated place or country names are similar to any word of “basic” vocabulary in the respective language. If a person woud create a country named “Turkey” in OGF and the Turkish name would be Hindi, the user must of course be reminded of the no-joke-countries rule :) (Well, and with Turkey/Türkiye he would have to be reminded of the “no-well-known-real-world-names” rule.) Maybe the Turkey equivalent in OGF should be called Chicken/Cikkiye or something like that. :D
By the way: We have plenty of quite funny place names being verbs in German (Essen = to eat, Baden = to take a bath/to swim, Erlangen = to achieve, Singen = to sing, even Einsingen = to warm up before singing, there are many more). Of course, none of these names derives from the meaning of the respective verb. So I created some equivalents to this principle in Kalm, e.g. Kleiden = to dress.
@histor: Thanks for giving details for some other names!
@kingfries: I like the mixture of names with really simple and very complicate etymological backgrounds.
Comment from eklas on 7 January 2017 at 18:29
Nerschach is absolutely fine! And yes, if there were a river with the same name in the city, it would be even better.
For my part I like Nerschach because I ‘translated’ it to Drabantian as Nerže and it sounds perfectly organic and I’m really happy.
By the way there’s this list of city names waiting to get filled with translations.
Comment from histor on 7 January 2017 at 19:15
There are two proverbs in Germany about names: “nomen est omen” on the one side and on the other “Namen sind Schall und Rauch” (“names are (only) sound and smoke”). So you can choose, what you prefer.
An other silly name: München (Munich) from middle- german Münech means “at the monks”.
Comment from Luciano on 7 January 2017 at 23:14
I always like to point out that sometimes exotic-sounding names are very boring in their native language: “Seoul” means “Capital City” in old Korean. Pretty boring. “Pyeongyang” means “Flat Place.” Likewise, in Japanese “Tokyo” means “Eastern Capital” (while the old capital of Japan is “Kyoto” = “Capital City”). The “old name” for Tokyo, “Edo” is no more imaginative - it means “Estuary.” “Beijing” means “North Capital” (vs “Nanjing” = “South Capital”), while “Shanghai” means “by the Sea.”
All of this offers a lesson - the exoticness of names is relative to the language, as discussed above with respect to Turkey, too. I think this is fabulous, and have intentionally chosen a lot of boring and silly names for my places, but since I use Spanish or Korean or even made up languages like Mahhalian or Altazorian, their meanings are somewhat obscured.
Comment from EMKLI on 7 January 2017 at 23:46
Well, I have two points here. One in general: naming cities is painfully difficult. Especially if you map in foreign languages. In every language, there are plenty of city names which mean nothing on first glance - because their names are slurred over the centuries, adapted to the evolving needs of language. Those names are extremely difficult to imagine. So in Norðurland, there are many (smaller) cities whose names doesn’t have any meaning - they “just sound good for me”.
Second, specific to your question: take a look at Austria. Almost all noteworthy cities along the Danube are named after the river or stream which empties into the Danube at that point: - Traun (south of Linz) - Gusen (near Mauthausen) - Enns - Ybbs (my total favourite) - Erlauf (south of Pöchlarn) - Melk - Pielach (east of Melk) - Krems - Traismauer (river: Traisen) - Tulln - Schwechat - Fischamend (as in “Fischamünd”/”Fischamouth”) - and of course: Vienna/Wien
So at least in Austria, naming a city after the river which it was founded at is a common pattern, especially at the mouth of this river into another. I think, your idea is perfect!
Comment from Litvania on 8 January 2017 at 10:01
Place name prefixes is an interesting topic when it comes to Poland or Slovakia. Ive been to this town up in West Pomerania (northwest Poland and northeast Germany) called Świnoujście.
Now, the name of this place to Poles is quite obvious. It means “The mouth/estuary/delta of the Świna.
Some other interesting names are Kołobrzeg, which is a small tourist haven in the same region. Its name means “next to the shore”.
There are also a bunch of towns in the the same voivodeship that have names like Drawsko Pomorskie. This means “The Drawsko upon the sea”. This, is not exactly next to the shore.
There apparently hasent been much studies on Polish place etymology and place names, but they are really weird and sometimes without exact meaning.
Comment from joschi81 on 9 January 2017 at 01:51
Thank you all for your interesting feedback to my diary entry! Will, now it’s “fixed forever” in the history of the OGF world: The Kalmish capital “Nerschach” has it’s name from a 74km long river with the same name, which I created now, including some general landscape design of the upper Nerschach valley.
@eklas, @EMKLI: Thanks for your explicit support of the Nerschach river idea!
@Litvania: I think Kołobrzeg means “Mount Wheel” or “Mount Circle”, am I wrong? Świnoujście is Swinemünde in German, the exact translation.
@Luciano: I’m going to Japan next month and I’m looking forward to seeing not only Tokyo and Kyoto. :)
Comment from Litvania on 9 January 2017 at 20:53
@joschi81 Brzeg is coast. (I know you confused it with German for mountain, berg) So, “Round Coast”, “Circle Shore”?
Also i failed to mention that Swinemünde is Świnoujście in German. Ive been there multiple times, and i even crossed over into Ahlbeck and Heringsdorf (Herring-Village!) sometimes.
Beautiful place Pomerania isnt it?