I forgot how bad iD used to be

Posted by Greg_Rose on 3 September 2020 in English (English)

Very frustrating not having the present-day iD functionality in the OGF version. Actually considering going back to JOSM. Ugh.

I don't suppose a refresh of the OGF-flavor of iD is forthcoming?

Comment from CharlieG on 3 September 2020 at 17:37

I agree. Although I've learned that the top users on OGF largely root against iD because of its decreased abilities, I love it for its ease of use, visually-appealing platform, decluttered UI, and ability to run in browsers. Right now, I'm pretty sure version 2.15 or 2.16 exists in OSM, but we have 2.1.3 here in OGF, which saddens me. If OGF is a community, we need to have fair representation of all users, no matter what tool they use to map. I am in favor of updating iD to its modern version.

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Comment from ADB52 on 3 September 2020 at 18:08

I gather that the people who would be able to implement this technically are currently otherwise engaged (outwith the spheres of OGF).

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Comment from Luciano on 3 September 2020 at 18:41

I've always been one of those people who was irrationally hostile to iD. I'm not even sure why. When I first started with OGF, I tried the two browser-based editors and immediately chose Potlatch2. Potlatch is unsupported, I believe, at this point. I eventually transitioned to JOSM and although it's got its problems and drawbacks, I've become so comfortable with it at this point that I'd never imagine using a browser-based editor. Personally I dislike the "presets" (in iD or JOSM) because they feel too "real world" and constrain geofiction.

That said, I'm curious how hard it is, technically, to upgrade just iD within the rail port (osm-website) architecture. Clearly just upgrading the entire OGF rails port is out of the question, as it has been substantially customized for OGF. But iD has a standalone version, and I wonder how it might be upgraded without messing with the rails port.

On my Arhet server, I appear to have iD 2.7.1 enabled - this is just a consequence of that having been the active version of iD when I built the Arhet server off the rails port codebase 2 years ago. The current version of iD on github is 2.18.4.

I might play around with seeing if I could upgrade the iD editor on Arhet without breaking anything.

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Comment from theruler on 3 September 2020 at 18:41

My opinions;

JOSM shouldn't be "ugh". JOSM is much more free than iD and does have personalisation features. It is also excellent for plugins and more support for imagery (including tracing, maybe via a plan drawn on paper or on computer), something which iD lacks unfortunately. Not to say adm. boundaries, relations etc.

If you do not like JOSM, then I respect that. If you aren't a frequent user of JOSM, I recommend just trying once again.

Anyway, to iD versions;

Its hard to "just" update iD. It's a complicated piece of software. First you'll need to know that the OGF website is run on " Ruby on Rails " as the UI. Then you'll need to know that iD is run on Javascript, which further complicates matters.

As I see it, there is no "big" necessity for such an update unfortunately, and I suppose that Thilo already has many things to do, and this complicated matter will make it a distant reality.

You could eventually try Potlatch. It's like a mix of iD and JOSM. Also has good and decent features which can be compared to JOSM.

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Comment from Lithium-Ion on 3 September 2020 at 19:06

For one reason, I think that iD users would not want to see it updated. Right now, iD on openstreetmap does not let you delete objects that cannot be viewed fully in your screen. This makes deleting large things a huge pain, and effectively impossible.

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Comment from Luciano on 3 September 2020 at 19:12

The "large object" problem mentioned by Lithium-Ion is probably why I've decided JOSM is better for geofiction. I can open my entire territory in JOSM - or even more. Large scale mapping isn't necessary in OSM - the large-scale world effectively is a fixed object when talking about real-world mapping. It is quite rare for OSM mappers to need to edit anything larger than a few city blocks.

The requirements in geofiction are quite different. I spent the last few days tracing entire continents from old paper maps, for my Rahet project. JOSM is the only option, basically.

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Comment from Greg_Rose on 3 September 2020 at 20:12

Wow... so many responses!
No surprise - I poked the anthill with a stick after all. ;)

I do use both JOSM and iD on OSM. I do a lot of work for HOT ( and when I validate other users' mapping in urban areas, I commonly use JOSM. But in all other cases, I use iD - whether rw mapping or validating. I formerly used JOSM much more, but last Fall there was a major rev of iD that was a huge game-changer, making it much more useful for mapping (I commonly can map 3x as fast with iD), and making it more difficult for noob mappers to unintentionally screw things up.
But yeah, that latter category included the removal of ability to delete large objects, and as L-i and Luciano pointed out, that's definitely a non-starter for OGF.
My main issue with JOSM is the user experience. The UI feels clunky (makes QGIS seem elegantly designed), looks unappealing (like CAD software from the 90's), requires downtime while you upgrade/patch/update plugins, etc., and is too dependent on external availability (iD is never "down").
No... iD is nowhere near perfect, but I do have an informed and rational preference.
That might change now - not sure I can transition back to JOSM for detailed mapping, but I definitely will need to use it here for large-scale mapping.

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Comment from yoyo21 on 3 September 2020 at 21:42

I've tried the newest version of iD and I prefer the current version that is used here on OGF better.

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Comment from Taka on 4 September 2020 at 09:50

What's tangibly different about the current version of iD on OSM compared to the version that's ran on OGF?

(iD vs JOSM tangent) Personally I use iD for all small scale mapping I do, finding JOSM to be just a bit too technical to be used for small scale edits, which make up 90% of my mapping. I still have JOSM installed for large scale edits, such as admin boundaries, other relations or just mapping on a more macro scale, but for anything precise, I could never see myself use it. I've tried, but the area I did that for had to be retouched in iD afterwards quite a bit... Obviously I could chalk that down to my inexperience, but why bother learning something new if the old works just fine? :P For things I can't do in iD, I use JOSM, but most of the time, iD does just fine.

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Comment from NixTheProtogen on 4 September 2020 at 13:21

I've never been able to get Josm to work for me. I've looked at tutorials and everything. I tried to make sense of it and make it work for around a year in the past but to no avail. I can't even do that cuz my laptop has since broken.

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Comment from Geoc3ladus on 4 September 2020 at 13:47

I'm hearing all about how great JOSM is here, and I have a computer that doesn't support it. So ID and Potlatch are the only two I have. This makes me want JOSM EVEN MORE.

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Comment from Greg_Rose on 8 September 2020 at 00:30

@Taka I totally agree with you. There was a period of about 3 months where I was using JOSM much more than iD (due to a HOT project I was working), and small-scale edits became SO much more grueling.
As far as differences between iD versions goes, v2.18 allows:
* Rotation of lines
* Squaring of unclosed lines and individual corners (and now uses "Q" key as JOSM does)
* Straightening of individual points, subsections of lines, or multiple connected lines
* Disconnection of an entire feature from all other connections (for instance, a highway glued to an area - shift-select both and they are unglued from each other. Or, highlight one, and it is unglued from everything - handy for moving things around)
* Extraction of points (i.e., a tagged node that is part of a way or area is removed from whatever it was glued to and remains as a stand-alone node)
* When drawing a feature, the feature remains selected if you decide you don't like the node you placed and CTR-z it (that alone has saved so much time)
* Editing tags/fields of multiple selected (similar) features
* Left panel docking, enabling full-screen mapping (see image for next item)
* Toggle color-coding to show what you've edited in the current session (as below: green is newly added, orange is editing of pre-existing geometry, yellow is tag change only)

* Raw tagging: Displays all tags for a feature as text, allowing copying and pasting of all tags to another feature (see in left panel below)

* Selected features can still be seen if zoomed out past zoom 16

* And LOTS and LOTS of new presets!

I'm know there's other stuff I'm not thinking of... but you get the idea.

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