OpenGeofiction
Hey there, this topic has been on my mind for a while now, and I would like to post it here for discussion.
When mapping my cities etc, I kinda just named all the things in 3 languages: Kojolese, my countries made-up language, English and German; although recently I sometimes name some things only in Kojolese, for example street names etc. However, I’ve seen at many other great maps, that even countries where the “official language” isn’t English/Ingerish, are mapped in English, which obviously helps with figuring out what everything is supposed to be. So my question is, what do you guys think about this?
I like naming stuff in its native language, cuz then it just has a more… natural feeling to it I guess, and it forces strangers to engage with the culture of the place they are viewing. On the other hand, I’m not sure if it sometimes hinders understanding for spectators. They are probably able to figure out which buildings are supposed to be train stations and which not, but without reading through the wiki or opening the map editor to look at some translations provided there, they probably won’t be able to understand why the heck so many stations’ names end on “Dyanchezi”, “Chezi” or “Norikichezi”.
Also, of course, telling names become pointless. Viewers will notice that “Goengyuē-Pang” is a city quarter, but again, without checking in the editor noone will notice that there is an origin to that name, even if only marginal. So how do you guys deal with this? Do you maybe sometimes use hybrids, naming important places with English clarifications, like “‘nativ lang word’ Stadium”? Or do you not care at all what others see when they view your places and are only concerned about your self enjoying the view ;) Hope to hear from some of you!
cheers, leo
Discussion
Comment from Luciano on 1 August 2015 at 22:46
I think naming things is very important to make an interesting map. I don’t really like the tendency so many mappers here have to create these vast, fairly well-mapped territories but devoid of names. Mazes of unnamed streets get on my nerves. So I try very hard to put a name on very road and town I make.
That said, It’s also hard to do. One approach, if you have a made-up language, is to just slap random strings of made-up words on everything and not worry about meaning. I have done that in my country Mahhal, but it’s not very satisfying to me - one of the reasons Mahhal is kind of “on stand-by” is because I want to make progress on the made-up Mahhalian language before mapping further.
In the Ardisphere, which is quite multilingual, most of the languages are based on “real, earth” languages. My basic approach is to name things as I imagine the locals would “need” or prefer to see things named. The main language in the Ardisphere is Castellanese (Spanish), so everywhere in the country, I try to make sure this is the “fall back” language. If I use one of the minority languages (Gohangukian [=Korean] being a notable one), then I will put Castellanese in parentheses on important named objects - kind of thinking of it the way the Ardispherian government would approach it. The minority language gets top billing but the majority language gets included so everyone can be happy.
Many towns in the Ardisphere actually have 3 or 4 or more different names: there’s an Altazorian name (the aboriginals - maybe 2 if there were different tribes in the area), there are two Castellanese names (a colonial, often a saint’s name, and a “secularist” name, often something descriptive and rather banal in translation, like Santa Fe / Cerro y Casa), there’s a minority immigrant name, and in the case of Korean names, there’s a hangeul spelling and a hanja (character) for it. If I try to stack all these names into a label, they get quite cumbersome. So I try to imagine it from the Ardispherian’s point of view - which languages does he/she want to see on the sign?
As it is, some of the labels are pretty long. But I like the exoticism of the map with all these names.
The names of places is also becoming a kind of way to take notes. This is having an impact with my Korean-speaking area, as I try to think about the etymologies of the names, and I want to record the hanja (chinese-origin characters) for the varioius names. I don’t know if Ardispherians - even Gohangukian-Ardispherians - need to see hanja labels on their signs (unlike e.g. Japanese, Chinese characters are “optional” in Korean, as the native syllabary is dominant), but I put them there because it’s easier than keeping track of each city’s hanja in a separate database or document.
As a single example of much of the above, consider the town of Las Torres, which currently has 6 different names:
Names become a shorthand index for the history of a place.
I agree with Leowezy that all these non-English names no doubt “hinders understanding” for those viewing the map. But the language of maps is universal - a well-mapped stadium or subway doesn’t need comprehensible labels, because you can tell what it is. Thus the labels just add realism and “local flavor” - there is no need to translate it all into English on top of all the local languages! The only time I use English/Ingerish on my maps is a) when it’s one of the local languages, or b) those mostly rare moments when I’m in a hurry to throw something down on the map, and too lazy to work out the local name in that instant (you can find more of these in Mahhal than the Ardisphere).
Happy naming!
Comment from Pawl on 2 August 2015 at 06:38
On the whole I put names only in Cambric, since I’m wanting to see a fully Welsh-speaking country (as opposed to the mixed English/Welsh of the real Wales). On a couple of occasions I have added an English translation, or put a translation in the “name:en” tag (which doesn’t appear on the maps, though). This does have the down-side that Welsh pronunciation is a complete mystery to most non-Welsh speakers.
I am guilty of creating “mazes of unnamed streets”, but I do intend to go back and add names to all of them. I should really start doing it as I go along before the “retro-naming” task gets too big to handle!
Comment from Leowezy on 2 August 2015 at 11:21
That naming system is really impressive Luciano :o I like your approach of thinking “what a local might want to see”; I think I will go with that. Also this gives me the freedom to name things like international airports or other venues important in a global context in Ingerish, so foreign visitors can find them easily. And considering street names…. cough**cough well I guess I have to queue with Pawl for some hours of name writing xD
Comment from isleño on 2 August 2015 at 12:14
Great question.
I don’t think I’d use English to map an area where English/Ingerish isn’t used. But, I really like being able to switch into English, so… whenever I build a place, I almost always include English speaking colonizers in its history, for the sole reason that it allows me to use lots of English alongside the native language(s).
For me, it’s the “best of both worlds” — when I want to express something specific, I can say it in English (“Coral Bay” “Banyan Valley” “Navy Yard”); OR alternatively I can use a native place name which doesn’t express meaning but does help give the country a distinct flavor (“Leluwa” “Uuyawa” “Loluyawa”).
I guess this could be limiting, in a way. At least English isn’t the only colonial language that can work like this. There are other real languages where lots of words are easy to figure out… “Coral Bay” could be “Baie de Corail,” or “Bahía de Coral,” or something, depending on the language you use.
Still, I think the “opaque” names have equal value, and there’s nothing wrong with a country full of them. Sure, no one’s going to figure out the meaning of “Goengyuē-Pang” just by looking at the map. But that’s fine. That’s how real maps are. Most people don’t know the meaning of “Tokyo” or “Beijing,” but it’s still fun to look at maps of these places, full of interesting flavors, etc.
PS: For street names, some of these may help, if you haven’t seen them yet…
Comment from Leowezy on 2 August 2015 at 12:56
Thanks isleño for the link! I’ve seen it before, but didn’t notice the name generator that allows you to set up your own phonetic rules… I’m trying it out right now ^-^
Comment from Rasmus Rasmusson on 2 August 2015 at 19:03
Indications in Řots are always in Řotsnan, so streets are called e.g. “krak” or “vore” etc. and not “street” or “road” etc. Where useful, I can add a translation.
The problem of naming streets in a fictional language is the extra step of a) translations of descriptional words (bridge street, plutonium avenue), and b) creating a set of historical figures (artists, politicians, sportspersonae) after whom streets can be named. Especially the latter takes time, because they have to fit in the country’s history, society, etc.
Comment from Demuth on 2 August 2015 at 21:33
I’m just starting with a new country with a non-“Ingerish” population and I’m planning on using non-English names only on the map. I’ll use translations, where appropriate, in the wiki in describing things. For instance, my capitol city, Mynninghamn has an English name, Minningham, mentioned in my page on the country, Østermark. And I’m just starting out with the naming, so I’m not guilty yet of not naming all my streets ;-)
Comment from BMSOUZA on 2 August 2015 at 22:25
As I almost ever use only languages with latin alphabet, I dont see problems using only the “original” names. in Brasonia, Cariocas and Luslandia, only mapping in portuguese, with no translation to english (Prefeitura=Townhall, Praia=Beach, etc, I dont translate hehehe). In Buques (Ardisphere) and Rugenia (UL031) I “copy” patterns from Ardisphere. In Gilagonas (Mecyna) and Lonowai and Gobras City (Gobrassanya), I use only english. In Goytakanya, the only place with a fictional alphabet and language, but accepting latin alphabet, there are few places with local names - even these ones are easy to understand (Autopysta Nasyonal=Autopista Nacional=National Highway, Baya=Bay, etc). Goytakanya is the only place where I admit some translation, as I did in military areas (Armya=Army, Mareta=Marinha=Navy)
Comment from deltanz on 3 August 2015 at 06:04
I though a lot about this topic when I first started building my cities and I realized there are so many maps and so many users, that the best thing I would do would be to write in English, also because I show my maps to people that don’t use OGF and are not aware of the history and the languages of my country.
So I build a map for foreign people, I imagine everybody who sees my maps are people who are not from Neo Delta. I personally don’t want them to feel they must open ten wiki pages with the grammar of each language I’m constructing for my country. Some names are translated when they have a translation, like “Old City” is usually written in English everywhere, although some people in Neo Delta would call it “Jona Tigas” or “Hup Adawa”, Other places with names that have long lost their original meanings, like “Norve”, keep those names on the map. It’s the same logic behind “New York”, in Spanish and Portuguese the word “new” is often translated, so the city is called “Nueva York” or “Nova York”, but at the same time “York” does not change. That’s what I do, every time there is a possible translation to English, it will be written that way in my maps.
Comment from histor on 4 August 2015 at 20:20
Names of cities, towns and streets are only in the language of the land (Latina or Zylanda) - but may be in french, if it is a “frenkish” speaking region as Du Bois in Latina. In Du Bois streets not named as “calle” but as “rue”. Too in the dutch speaking region of Holland are some dutch names or names in 2 languages latinian and dutch as “Raposa / Vossin” (both means the vixen, wife of the fox).
Only for some important buildings or areas I set an english explanation, that the user of the map can know, what building or area it is. In the wiki, most names are translated in english.
And sorry - some points have only a provisorical german note - that are buildings or areas, who will get the correct english name in the future after a look in the wordbook.
Comment from Ernestpkirby on 12 August 2015 at 04:01
Yeah… It does kind of look strange when a non Ingerish speaking country has all English labels without something to give it some feel for the country’s culture.
Since I only speak English fluently, I made Ingerish (well, technically Freedemian, an Ingerish dialect that tends to use burgh or borough in place of burg) my main language. Considering the fact that my culture matches that, it seems to work well for Freedemia. However, I can see where using only Ingerish could take away from the feel of the culture and such of a non Ingerish speaking nation or a nation with non Ingerish culture.