OpenGeofiction
The last two days I’ve struggled to load any page on the wiki without the connection being reset or timing out. The map is allowing me to upload and download edits fairly easily but isn’t loading the tiles as smoothly as usual.
Is this just me or is everyone experiencing this? If there is a problem with server capacity or anything similar then would it be helpful to crowd fund some additional money to help with the servers? I would certainly be happy to help with a few € to keep OGF running if required.
Discussion
Comment from eklas on 21 March 2017 at 18:33
I have the same problem as well!
Also yeah, I wouldn’t mind donating a little either.
Comment from Litvania on 21 March 2017 at 18:41
I am experiencing the same. I cant donate though.
Comment from ante44 on 21 March 2017 at 18:59
I’m experiencing that since I’m a member of this community. It happens every 2-3 days, but when I visit OpenStreetMap it happens almost every time, especially if I spend more than few minutes on it (probably beacuse there’s a lot more data). I always thought that this is caused by my not-very-good computer, but it seems I’m not the only one who is experiencing this.
Comment from Yuanls on 21 March 2017 at 19:59
I have experienced this problem, but it is not a large enough problem for me to worry excessively about, as it just takes longer to do things. But I would rather have it fixed though.
Comment from Myrcia on 21 March 2017 at 20:18
The map issue is bearable but the wiki issue makes it very, very difficult to edit. I have taken to editing in Notepad and then taking multiple attempts to submit my work.
Comment from martinum4 on 21 March 2017 at 20:18
I only have the problem with the wiki, but not with the tiles… Ping of the server looks fine, so it could be some hiccup of the webserver. Also, the API is on another server, so it’s not affected by problems of the Wiki-Server
Comment from ADB52 on 21 March 2017 at 20:18
Now that you mention it, things have been a bit slow over the last few days.
Comment from Pawl on 21 March 2017 at 20:37
My impression is that the tiles have been slower to update than they were, but it’s tolerable …. but the Wiki has become close to unusable much of the time.
Comment from Aces California on 21 March 2017 at 20:57
I’ve mentioned the same issue on my Bliki post this week, it’s been chaos and really stopped me from doing any work it’s so bad for me.
Comment from Luciano on 21 March 2017 at 21:53
Indeed there are terrible wiki performance issues, currently.
I know that Thilo has been working on some server configuration changes, and I’m sure that this is a part of it. Let’s have patience.
Meanwhile, let’s accept the performance issue as a gift - it will force all of us to focus on the map, which is what this site is all about, after all.
Let me be “devil’s advocate” for a moment:
Speaking only for myself, if there were no wiki, I would still be using OGF quite happily. When I first came here, there was no wiki, and I started building my own wiki on another site, which I used to support my work here. When Thilo added the wiki, I was quite grateful, but subsequently I have more than once thought that having the wiki actually is a bit of a distraction (especially for new users), and that the site’s overall quality would be improved by removing it.
Comment from martinum4 on 21 March 2017 at 22:08
I doubt that the quality of the mapping and especially the diary-entries would improve if the wiki would be shut down, after all you’d have to figure out the values for JOSM yourself, couldn’t document collaborative projects properly and you are at risk that everyone edits your country because there’s no wiki to point new users to the appropriate free-for-all-territories.
Comment from Leowezy on 21 March 2017 at 22:10
@Luciano, while I agree with the points you made, I’d like to play “the devil’s advocate” for the other side; I find that sometimes I’m simply not in the mood for (or simply don’t have access to a proper PC) “proper” mapping. In these moments, I just want to pour some creativity into the wiki, maybe working on the Kojolese language, or writing about Kojolese TV channels. On most days of course my main motivation is to get stuff laid down on the map, and to develop the cities that I’ve already laid out in front of me in my imagination. And in such instances, the work on the wiki will only be a very minor “distraction”, for example when I quickly add some new administrative boundaries I created etc.
What I want to say with this; I see how for many mappers the wiki can indeed be a distraction from the real map, however I think the wiki CAN be a very good supplement to the map in that it makes the whole process of world-building more believable and transparent, and at least for me personally I don’t think there would be a single node more in Kojo is the wiki had never been created.
Comment from Myrcia on 21 March 2017 at 22:14
I think if there were no wiki I’d either have created my own wiki or I’d have stopped mapping soon after I began.
Not only do I find editing editing the wiki highly enjoyable, it is also a vital tool for making sense of an entire nation with culture, language and business which is required to support realistic mapping.
The wiki may be a distraction from mapping for some but I do not see the purpose of OGF to be merely the creation of a map but as a chance to create Geofiction which is the creation of a fictional nation. This includes both what is on the map and what is on the wiki.
Comment from bhj867 on 21 March 2017 at 22:34
@martinum4
Senior member here.
I’m not a mod by any means, but I do know there definitely were ways to circumvent those problems before the wiki. Many of us started before the wiki and managed with the rules just fine. By reading the about me page.
Comment from bhj867 on 21 March 2017 at 22:37
I feel we have a problem with “too much to do” other than mapping. Between the wiki, the user diaries, the world news, and now the twitter it makes my head spin. There is too much to read.
Comment from Luciano on 21 March 2017 at 22:41
@martinum4 - bear in mind that before the wiki existed, there were a number of pages on the server that included things like our current Territories overview map, “about” page, FAQ, etc. Thus if the wiki “disappeared” no doubt those pages would be restored, and the lack of information about the site that you worry about is not relevant.
That said, in general, I’m not advocated the removal of the wiki. I love having it, and much prefer to to the idea of having to use an off-site tool to document my mapping activity. I’m only making my point because lately I’ve felt that the quality of the work in the wiki by new users has been quite poor, and my own wiki work (mostly stagnant) is poor too, and that frustrates me.
I have very seriously considered deleting most of my “wiki presence”, EXCEPT for my “User” namespace (i.e. I would KEEP my bliki, sandbox, etc.) - basically, I mean that I would MOVE all the Ardisphere pages and stubs into my Sandbox. This would underscore my own feeling that my wiki work is of low quality and not the core purpose of my use of the site, anyway.
Comment from bhj867 on 21 March 2017 at 23:07
I actually see both points of view. I would have to say, after I’m done mapping to my satisfaction I will concentrate more on the wiki. I have nothing to talk about anymore for Pretty the the moment. Because my wikification caught up to the level I had mapped, after that wikification was redundant to me.
Comment from Aces California on 21 March 2017 at 23:22
Personally, I’m not here for the mapping primarily. Well I am, but not aesthetically. I’m here to create a narrative and a story for my country. I could continue on on OGF without the wiki, but for me there’d be something missing. I can see the merits of both sides of the issue, but personally for me OGF won’t be OGF without the wiki. I’d even go to say what the wiki has made User Diaries and World News redundant links (even though I know User Diaries are still frequent in use, I feel that the use of the Bliki could soon make it redundant).
Comment from thilo on 21 March 2017 at 23:51
Following a server reboot, it looks like the situation has improved considerably, at least for now. I can’t say that I really understand the cause of the problem, but there seemed to be a problem with accepting network connections. The server load was rather low the whole time.
Comment from Luciano on 22 March 2017 at 01:42
Thank you, Thilo, as always, for all that you do to make this site possible and functional for everyone! Happy mapping, rebooting, and all that stuff!
Comment from Black Baron on 22 March 2017 at 12:05
Hello mappers. I think that the destiny of the OGF World, considered as a mathematical abstraction, has two possibilities. The first one, without wiki, points to a chaotic future, with no common history. The second one, although implies a very far destiny, tends to the interrelation between cultures and the integration of elements. To achieve this future, the wiki is necessary. Although mapping in OGF is a great pleasure, constructing the OGF world background while mapping is a better experience for me and other users. Happy mapping… and constructing the OGF world background!
Comment from isleño on 22 March 2017 at 15:47
It’s hard to imagine this now, but before the wiki, there was no need for common history, interrelation, integration, or for anything to make sense on a global scale… and for most people that was fine. There was no realistic way to coordinate those things, and so they were largely non-issues. Sure the world was chaotic, but it wasn’t a problem; it was a silent, harmless chaos that was fairly easy to ignore, and provided enormous freedom. Your country was your canvas, and you were free to imagine whatever background or context you liked. It was beautifully simple, beautifully free, beautifully quiet.
I do enjoy having the wiki, but… beyond everything else mentioned so far, I think its most dramatic effect was that it forced us all to start imagining the same world — and it’s impossible to express how profoundly that has transformed the OGF experience, in both negative and positive ways. I admit I sometimes miss the days before the wiki; I think things were a lot more carefree, and probably more fun for a lot of people. But of course there’s no going back.
Maybe there’s a way to place some limits on the wiki. Like “Wiki Wednesdays” where the wiki is open for editing, but make it read-only during the rest of the week. Perhaps that would deter a lot of the low quality content and overwikification. I don’t know, just brainstorming…
Comment from bhj867 on 22 March 2017 at 19:22
I like to wiki from my phone when I don’t have access to the my computer.
Comment from Black Baron on 22 March 2017 at 20:46
I think that the wiki is a useful tool when we don’t have access to a useful computer. Limiting the time for editing is complex because a lot of people have a chaotic free time to do this. The wiki is useful to acquire a wide point of view of your country or smaller mapping structures. Maybe we can add a symbol to show easily which countries want to achieve a whole world integration, including historic background, languages, etc.
Comment from isleño on 22 March 2017 at 21:40
If wiki editing time was limited (which I admit is unlikely to happen) it would be easy for anyone to write wiki content offline, whenever they wanted, in a plain text file, on their phone, or wherever, and then just copy/paste it into the wiki during the open editing period.
Comment from zhenkang on 22 March 2017 at 22:30
@Isleno. That is what I thought after my wiki account is blocked. But having need to study and mapping at the time reduces my time for the wiki. I actually also doubt the wiki presence-is it a supplement or a need?
Comment from zhenkang on 22 March 2017 at 22:31
*for planning my wiki.
Comment from BelpheniaProject on 22 March 2017 at 23:38
I also experienced the same problems trying to load the OpenGeofiction Wiki yesterday.
Comment from eklas on 23 March 2017 at 05:47
Limiting or restricting the wiki is a terrible idea in my opinion. Yes, I guess I could write stuff offline- but because I’m fairly unskilled when it comes to creating a table or coding and data input in general, I need the ‘show preview’ function and doing it on real Wikipedia just wouldn’t work. It would actually take so much extra time.
I do understand your concerns about quality mapping, but I don’t think this would help at all.
Comment from isleño on 23 March 2017 at 06:40
It wouldn’t necessarily take extra time; you’d just have to wait until the wiki was open in order to do the ‘show preview’ part. Obviously this would have a bigger impact on unskilled users, but that’s kind of the point. If someone needs to spend hours doing ‘show preview’ just to make a wiki table look right, that’s almost certainly taking away from their mapping… exactly the kind of thing we want to discourage.
Comment from Pawl on 23 March 2017 at 07:29
I wouldn’t be here if it didn’t have the Wiki. To me, maps were always there to illustrate a narrative or story, provide context, or serve a purpose like finding your way from A to B. I didn’t map for a hobby, and wouldn’t have seen the point in mapping without an outlet for the story, the context, which the map is helping to describe.
Having said that, I do now spend much more time mapping than wiki’ing!
Comment from eklas on 23 March 2017 at 08:32
Wow, no, more like minutes, but still. I want to be flexible and edit the wiki whenever I feel like. As many people have already pointed out, wiki edits are often made on phone, and sometimes you just don’t feel like mapping and want to edit the wiki or do something entirely OGF-unrelated.
And with all due respect, I don’t feel like an unexperienced mapper just because I struggle with tables on the wiki.
Comment from isleño on 23 March 2017 at 15:50
In that case it would seem like merely a matter of patience; you want to see your content appear in the wiki right now rather than waiting a few days to copy/paste it. That’s understandable, but again, that’s part of the point. It’s a deliberate inconvenience designed to reduce wiki use, and its disproportionate impact on anyone lacking the patience to wait a few days to copy/paste is deliberate as well.
That said, as I’ve already mentioned, this is very unlikely to ever happen, so I don’t think you need to be worried about it.
Comment from Luciano on 23 March 2017 at 23:33
Well, this conversation has been long and interesting, but as isleño has said in his most recent comment, any changes to the wiki’s deployment is quite unlikely - if anything, we are increasing the wiki’s use, as we see bliki (blog) and forum functionality take off on the platform.
Some people have been quite insistent that the wiki is important because of the need to “document” one’s country, to integrate the maps created with other aspects of the fictional countries and cultures being created. I would only like to add that if the wiki disappeared from OGF (which, as I just said, isn’t going to happen, so this is simply a “counterfactual hypothetical”), no one would be prevented from documenting or writing about their countries - they’d just have to do it somewhere else.
Before there was a wiki on OGF (and before I knew a wiki was a possibility for OGF), I was already documenting and “wikifying” my country - I was doing so offline, with the intention of building my own private website to host information and stories and articles about my country. So anyone could do that, and still could.
I’m mentioning this because sometimes, when I get annoyed with having to “cooperate” with other people’s quite different visions for our shared imaginary world, I daydream of taking Mahhal and the Ardisphere off to my own web space, where I would have zero constraints about what other people wanted. Actually, I suspect we have users who are doing exactly this - these are the people who are active, doing interesting mapping, but who don’t participate in the diaries and wiki. Anyone who doesn’t want to deal with the collaborative aspect imposed by OGF can bypass it in this way. Mostly, I think I benefit from trying to collaborate with other people, even if it’s frustrating sometimes. So I stick around and keep participating and posting things.