OpenGeofiction
This may be a stupid question, but can you give me tips how to make realistic cities? I saw the wiki page, but it didn’t help much. I started some cities like this, but they don’t look good enough, like other cities, such as Campo Verde, Latina, Khaiwoon or Capidava. I hope I get some help. Regards
Discussion
Comment from BMSOUZA on 30 June 2015 at 10:14
Hi, tule00!! I am very happy you mentioned my Campo Verde between the cities you like!
Yesterday I was talking with user Portopolis about a question like this.
I still think the wiki article is the best guideline.
I think you need, first at all, look for a inspiration to your cities, as said in the first tip in wiki article. In my particular case, I am almost always inspired in brasilian cities, with a irregular grid of streets, some road junctions, etc, except when I edit Belgravia, because it is a european-like country. You can notice there is a ring around Slovech it could be usual in european cities, but not in brasilian ones. Just a example. I put tramways in Slovech. It is also usual in so much european cities, but is inexistent in brasilian cities.
And you use a road ring in Mutstats and tramways in Igwepir… so, you are in a good way!!!
Portopolis wants creating a japanese-style city. Tip to him? Elevated highways, express railways, etc, hehehe.
I took a look in your Igwepir and I like it. If it is one of your first cities in OGF, I can say you is doing it better than me, because my first city is ugly and unfinished til present days. Take a look in Itacolomi. Downtown here would be inspired in São Luiz do Maranhão, Brasil, almost a copy, hehehe, but till today I notice Itacolomi is completely out-of-scale. Downtown and suburbs… Here I used the second tip of the wiki article: I look for a city with similar site and tried build something. Another detail about Itacolomi. Downtown was inspired in São Luiz, but east area was inspired in north Belo Horizonte, as you can see in the road junction. It was my first city, so, I was needing some real examples to follow, hehehe. Today, I dont need so much examples to start creating some city or town.
Khaiwoon (by Isleño, histor and others) is clarely inspired in Singapore.
Look Villa Constituicion. “Oh, it is just a lot of squares!!!!”. Ok, may be, but the details turn this city more than simply “a lot of squares”.
At first look, I think your Igwepir is being somethink like Monaco, but bigger, and this is very good. You can include some more details, mainly in the harbour. I dont know the exactly words in english, but try put some warehouses or depots. Edit the coast line, but be careful with that! I like so much your cities, as Mutstats
Try be focused in ONE city each time. Example: think about sport clubs and stadiums in Igwepir. A zoo, maybe. Stations to the trams. Is it a touristic city? Build a shopping center, maybe a beach. Where could be a good place to a beach there? You decide…
Think about vegetation around the city. Use green areas.
The other users can help more than me…
Best regards, and good maping! Bruno Moreira
Comment from Leowezy on 30 June 2015 at 11:13
I think BMSOUZA’s comment is full of good advise. I just think there’s one more thing to add, and that is: time. Firstly, it just takes time to learn how to properly use the map editor, JOSM and all the other tools available. I still discove “new” ways of mapping certain things on a daily basis, and I’m sure even more experienced users wouln’t claim to know everything there is to know. Also, I find that with my city(s), the ideas develop over time, and while it certainly is a good idea to have a rough sketch of the city in your head before you start mapping, it will probably develop and change while you’re in the mapping process. Secondly, the mapping of cities or countries like Villa Constituicion, Khaiwoon or Latina takes a - lot - of - time, and none of these were done in a few weeks, and perhaps were worked on by multiple mappers at once. Some mappers certainly are more “time effective” than others, and there are many ways of saving time by using the right software, but if I look at the degree of complexity and detail in a city such as Khaiwoon, and compare it to for example my city of Pyingshum, I can only imagine how much effort and time went into these projects. So, enjoy the process of mapping your cities and countries, and over time they will get better and better :) I know that this saying might be slightly overused, but “The journey is the reward”.
On a last note, as BMSOUZA mentioned… to me, too, your city looks really good, especially considering it’s your first. So I think you are on a really good way, too :)
Cheers!
Comment from tule00 on 30 June 2015 at 11:31
Thanks to both :) BMSOUZA, Itacolomi is not bad at all! I’m glad that the community is not bored with me. Thanks a lot again!
Comment from BMSOUZA on 30 June 2015 at 20:25
Leowezy says well!!! When I started building Itacolomi, I did not know about selecting some ways and press “Q” would do 90o angles, as a example. And about Khaiwoon, the most well-developed city in my opinion, it is really done by more than one user, and was not done in few weeks. Thanks about your add, Leowezy!!!
Tule00, I am happy you like Itacolomi, but if I can see something good there, I can say Igwepir is being better than Itacolomi, hehehe
Regards! Bruno Moreira
Comment from tule00 on 30 June 2015 at 22:52
As far as I know, Q (orthogonalize) and A A (snap angle) tools are the best for straight streets
Comment from Luciano on 1 July 2015 at 00:50
The above comments are all true. I would emphasize the time involved. It takes a long time. The other aspect of this is histor’s comment about making changes and revisions, deleting areas, changing your mind. I have done this a great deal, and I view it to be like making a drawing in pencil - you sketch something, then you erase and sketch it differently, then you erase again and sketch it differently again. Each time, it gets better, but you delete a lot of old work, too - don’t ever imagine you are “finished.” The map evolves.
I see three main ways to get started. I have used all three methods.
Comment from tule00 on 1 July 2015 at 08:43
Thanks for bothering to help me. I thought you just “know” to map, because Capidava is from a pretty much new user - he started a day before me. Now I see how it’s done. # One question And if someone sees this, one more question: I have been saving my capital, Sůtton, to build it later so it would be perfect. Should I start outlining it now, and delete it if it’s not good? Or should I wait till I’m a good mapper?
Comment from histor on 1 July 2015 at 14:20
to one question = let Sutton lay down a while. Make other things, other towns and so on. After a while - if you feel more perfect - then take a new look to Sutton and change.
Comment from BMSOUZA on 1 July 2015 at 20:26
No problem about build your capital later or redo it.
I still think about redo Itacolomi someday too.
I am these days focused in fulfill my small territory of Goytakanya and I deleted so many things till now. Before, the center of the country was plane with so much plantations, so I deleted the plantations and used that landuses as a way to mark some topography, hehehe
Obs: I would get inspiration in Dubai residencial areas, and maybe I do it in Grakteh, but in goytakano capital Bhagurah, and Berysha I was inspired in Male, Maldives
The main tip is: Dont think anyone here turns in a good mapper in few days or weeks, hehehe.
Regards!!! Bruno Moreira
Comment from tule00 on 1 July 2015 at 21:47
Something more. This city is a new city I have started. Is it good according to the advices? Some tips and suggestions?
Comment from histor on 1 July 2015 at 22:29
It is YOUR city - and you give the design. So nobody can say “wrong” or “right”. But …
a river normally flow in the MIDDLE of the town - and at the river is the town center (“DOWNtown”). In 99% the river is the reason, to build a town.
From the center the main-roads go like the legs of a spider in all directions - and may be crossing your regulair grid (with some pretty places and squares there). Downtown must not be a grid (see New York, south Manhattan). So I think, you should start with your downtown area (townhall, theaters, opera-house, main church (catholic and lutherian), great market hall and so on. So you have some landmarks and some places.
Think over, how great your town was around 1850. At this limit you can lay the railway (the station near the heart of the town). And please let not a motorway go direct through the heart of your city - better a broad “avenue” with retail area at the side - can be broad one block of the grid as in Buenos Aires / Argentina. And then you can construct your grid.
And if you will do a good work for your people, let the mothers with the little childs not run more as 500 m to the next park. Then set a water-work, a waste-water-cleaning, schools, places for sport, a stadium and other things, a town needs. For greater units you can put together two or more blocks of your grids.
You take 150 * 150 m for your grid - a good choice (see Barcelona in Spain - have a look on OSM).
Comment from tule00 on 1 July 2015 at 23:06
About the river, i thought it to be like my city, Belgrade. There are two big rivers in the city, but every part of the city is separated from the river. And the left part, Novi Beograd/New Belgrade is built about the 1940s. So, the city is not exactly on the river.
Comment from Luciano on 1 July 2015 at 23:46
RE grids - it’s not always true that the center of a city is not a grid. It depends on the history. It is true the oldest part of Manhattan is not a grid, while the grid extends to the new parts. But other North American cities show an almost opposite pattern, with a regular grid in the oldest part (often laid out in the 1800’s - look at Madison, Wisconsin or Veracruz, Mexico - laid out by Americans during their invasioin of Mexico in the 1840’s) and then the grid “breaking down” in the newer parts. Or else, like Chicago, the grid becomes universal and extends for 100’s of kilometers with only local breakages. It all depends on the original founders of the city. Even in Europe, cities founded during the Roman era will show a grid in their oldest parts which then breaks in newer parts (see Torino, Italy). Another interesting example is the Kyoto, Japan grid, which is 1000 years old.
Histor’s point is broadly correct, however. Think about the history - how did the city get to be the way it is? Why was it built? Who built it? I noticed you placed some motorways and an airport first. This is very tempting, and I have done mapping like that too, but I have come to realize it’s a mistake - you’re building the city “backwards” - motorways and large modern airports are often the YOUNGEST things in a major city, and would be the last things to build.
Comment from histor on 2 July 2015 at 00:06
Indeed it is the best and realistic way, to draw a city in a historical way. But this way is more work, because things change in towns. So normally the OGF-cities are a compromise between historical reminiscents and the actuel picture of a town.
I say nothing against a grid. Many of my towns in OGF have a grid - more or less great areas are rectangled streets. Grid or not is not the main question. Many towns in US-America indeed are founded with a grid from the start (Buenos Aires too). But other towns have the initial street net from geographic landmarks as a river-fork, a harbour or others. And the main avenues of Washington DC are in french style (L’Enfant).
“Think about the history - how did the city get to be the way it is? Why was it built? Who built it? “ That what Luciano wrote, is the basic for get a realistic design. And indeed - the airport sure is important - but his place is there, where place was as the town was ready.
Comment from BMSOUZA on 2 July 2015 at 11:53
I understand the point of view of Histor about a river at the center of a city, despite also there are a lot of cities where it does not happens, as São Mateus and Linhares, both in north Espírito Santo state.
The big city close where I live uses the river as main landmark, see it, Campos dos Goytacazes
About Gusten, I agree with all tips Histor said. If you will use a regular or irregular grid, it is your decision and no one can say if it is right or wrong, but you can start imagining about areas and main buildings. Where will be the townhall? What about a stadium to the favorite sport? A commercial area in Downtown, where you can mark some banks, shopping centers, etc.
I am starting to explore more about these “interest points” too. I always use football stadiums in my cities because I always think about a football league (what cities would have clubs in the first level league? And in the second league? etc). I always build bus-stations because I love transportation maps. But we can not forget other main points in a city or town, as churches, hospitals, bars, supermarkets, industrial areas, or even cemeteries, why not??
As a new experience, I am tying to put more and more details at least in Bhagurah downtown. I dont know if I will create more detailed buildings in other parts of the city or of the country, but I can see Bhagurah different of all the cities and towns I created before.
If you want do the same… lets go!!!
Bruno Moreira
Comment from tule00 on 2 July 2015 at 20:25
Gusten was intended to be a relatively new city, mostly planned, and why I built it farther from the river - I was using Belgrade as an example of such a city. BM, your Bhagurah is so realistic because of the way you mapped it, i thought I was in OSM and not OGF :)
Comment from BMSOUZA on 3 July 2015 at 08:20
Thank you, tule00!! :D
Comment from BMSOUZA on 3 July 2015 at 08:42
Another thing, tule00!! About a motorway “inside” your city.
I agree with Histor it is not the best thing to a city, but there are too a lot of good examples in north american cities.
I like specilly the motorway in San Francisco, I drove so much there… only playing “Driver: San Francisco” in PlayStation3, hehehehe
Bruno Moreira
Comment from tule00 on 4 July 2015 at 19:41
Also in Belgrade the highway goes through the city. Gusten is actually a new city, as you can see all streets are in the grid. As for San Francisco, every city in America has highways (“parkways”, “expressways” and other kinds of highways) in the center.
Comment from Demuth on 6 July 2015 at 10:17
The OGF dilemma: making realistic cities. And I don’t really have any tips for you either, I can just empathize. My cities are all very American in style with grids very much on a north-south and east-west axis, and some look better - Wiwaxmouthe - than others - Fanshawe. But even with the ones I feel look best, I have trouble with suburbs. And my natural features are often pretty bad, especially my river mouths, which totally suck. As the wiki on building realistic countries points out, I should’ve put in a lot more natural features first before building my cities.
Anyway, I concur with everyone else here: Your first city looks good, just keep working on it and it will get better and better!